Cheesy/OP builds no longer possible?

[mikeprichard]

Yeah, this 95% max resistance cap thing (to which apparently paralysis is the sole intended exception?) is very surprising to me.

Any changes here will not be exclusive to paralysis. We were just discussing how clamp and prorate affected paralysis immunity specifically.

It might end up that I bypass clamp and prorate logic whenever character has a perfect 100% immunity to the incoming element/effect type. That seems like it would match the intention and expectation, and be an easy fix. The clamp provides for natural failures but this is likely not intended for characters with perfect immunity. That's the crux of the paralysis bug, and yes this will likely apply to other payload/element types as well.

As I keep trying to explain, I will look into this more when I'm ready. I have higher priorities than infrequently-paralysed elves, you know.

Ha, save the elves! But as you note, if you could please eventually change (what I would also consider "fix") things so a total racial+class resistance value of 100% to any element/hostile effect (magic/fire/frost/shock/poison/disease/paralysis) actually did confer real and complete immunity to all incoming damage/effects of that category, that would be much, much more intuitive and comport with the behavior players would naturally expect to see considering e.g. the "Immunity" advantage language. Thanks for your patience!

[Interkarma]

Ha, save the elves! But if you could please eventually change (what I would also consider "fix") things so a total racial+class resistance value of 100% to any element (magic/fire/frost/shock/poison/disease/paralysis) actually did confer real and complete immunity to all incoming damage/effects of that category, that would be much, much more intuitive and comport with the behavior players would naturally expect to see considering e.g. the "Immunity" advantage language. Thanks for your patience!

Happy to help. Yes, that's exactly I'm saying above.

[Interkarma]

I have made this change now. If character has a perfect immunity of 100% or more for incoming payload, they will not be subject to natural failures or prorated damage/duration. This has fixed the High Elf paralysis bug and will also apply to other immunities (fire/frost/disease/etc.) provided the character's relevant saving throw tallies up to a perfect 100% or more for payload type.

Note the saving throw tally for combination High Elf + Crititcal Weakness to Paralysis will still result in 50% and not perfect immunity. The change I'm discussing is to fix this bug and similar outcomes resulting from natural failures and prorate logic when character has 100% immunity.

Also note that Immunity to Magic still won't make you immune to disease/poison/paralysis/etc. Only to spells using the Magic element (i.e. Arcane spells). If you want immunity to disease, for example, then you must choose Immunity to Disease in character creation.

Now, the only times I want to discuss this one again are:

• This change has unintended consequences or problems that need to be addressed.
• Someone creates a mod that for every perfect immunity save an over-the-top announcer screams "BOOM! PERFECT IMMUNITY!" - every... single... time... Then I will calmly acknowledge their work with a single .

[BansheeXYZ]

While you're busy being critical, I would ask that you be constructive about it. Describe to me a method you feel would be a superior fix to combining critical weakness and immunity.

I wasn't able to discuss this today because I was running errands. I'm not being negative, only debating what I see as logical problems. My solution would be to prefill the advantage sheet for Nords and High Elves. The entry would not count towards the slider or the advantage limit, it would simply appear, thus informing the player he cannot remove it, duplicate, or contradict it. It solves all those issues, and the issue of players building for old exploits and getting surprised and regretful.

No, neither of those things will happen. Why would they?

Because the way that weakness is phrased in the game doesn't equate to "Reduce Resistance by ##". It equates to "No resistance". You're turning an absolute into a raise/deduct. If reduction is what they meant, they would've just called it that. They also disallowed any combination of "resistance, immunity, low tolerance, and weakness".

Classic treats resistance as a 1 shot value that cannot be altered by redundant or contradictory selections. There are no items or spells that alter it, nothing in the char sheet to show it being altered. It's a 1 shot value, they simply forgot to account for the two races that came with hard values in the class builder. When you choose a Nord or High Elf, your choice for that resistance has already been made.

edit: clarified disallowed combinations

[mikeprichard]

I have made this change now. If character has a perfect immunity of 100% or more for incoming payload, they will not be subject to natural failures or prorated damage/duration. This has fixed the High Elf paralysis bug and will also apply to other immunities (fire/frost/disease/etc.) provided the character's relevant saving throw tallies up to a perfect 100% or more for payload type.

Note the saving throw tally for combination High Elf + Crititcal Weakness to Paralysis will still result in 50% and not perfect immunity. The change I'm discussing is to fix this bug and similar outcomes resulting from natural failures and prorate logic when character has 100% immunity.

Also note that Immunity to Magic still won't make you immune to disease/poison/paralysis/etc. Only to spells using the Magic element (i.e. Arcane spells). If you want immunity to disease, for example, then you must choose Immunity to Disease in character creation.

Now, the only times I want to discuss this one again are:

• This change has unintended consequences or problems that need to be addressed.
• Someone creates a mod that for every perfect immunity save an over-the-top announcer screams "BOOM! PERFECT IMMUNITY!" - every... single... time... Then I will calmly acknowledge their work with a single .

So much better - 100% total resist in any category will now actually result in absolute perfect immunity to that category, as logically expected, and as was originally implemented by Allofich (I just recalled the discussion at viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1709#p19981, which also clearly explains the "save"/"roll" language in this context I was unclear about above). I also didn't realize until I saw the above git change that Bretons in DFU have +30% to Magic resist, which isn't present in classic, but is consistent with the in-game race description. Anyway, I'm noting this topic for myself so I can finally remember how this whole system works, since it's unclear from in-game feedback.

And waiting for that mod.

[Nash]

I have nothing more to add other than thanks for all the work you've done so far, @interkarma :)

I'm not that much of a vanilla purist and am okay with the fixes. OG Daggerfall was a really broken game, and it's nice to be able to play it in a modern environment with fixed game mechanics... heck if I still wanted to cheese, I should just open the console to cheat. :P

[Teralitha]

• Everyone starts with 50%
• "Resistance" adds 25%
• "Immunity" adds 50%
• "Low Tolerance" removes 25%
• "Critical Weakness" removes 50%

What effect does luck have on these numbers, if any,

[Teralitha]

I have nothing more to add other than thanks for all the work you've done so far, @interkarma

I'm not that much of a vanilla purist and am okay with the fixes. OG Daggerfall was a really broken game, and it's nice to be able to play it in a modern environment with fixed game mechanics... heck if I still wanted to cheese, I should just open the console to cheat.

You can still cheese with the custom character creator. In fact you can still make a character with those 3 critical weaknesses and add just a few adjustments in your gameplay to compensate. I dont want to mention how, though. If you are clever enough you will figure it out. Id rather not give interkarma any ideas on how to stop it.

[jayhova]

My belief is that the main problem with paralysis immunity is player expectation. A player expecting to be able to play using the classic exploit is denied the ability to do this; often unbeknownst to them. They get that 'Hey this is not the way this works' shock. The only way I see to fix the issue is to have a pop up screen in character creation telling you that "Selecting this option means you are no longer immune to paralysis but have a X% chance of being paralized."

Perhaps it would be better to have a binary switch for immunity rather than attempting to deal with percentages which may be prone to software issues. A binary setting could simplify the process with a single line of code that checks the spell target for immunity and if immunity is true the effect fails. If any strange settings or bugs or other things change the target's resistance, unless the thing removes the immunity the paralysis effect still fails.

It seems likely this is why the classic game worked as it did with critical weakness having no effect because immunity simply bypassed the roll. You then have the possibility to offer players the option to have the game work with classic exploits by enabling immunity on a character with critical weakness.

[mikeprichard]

I think Allofich's current system as recently tweaked/fixed by Interkarma is very simple and logical (even though it took me about a hundred posts to finally figure it out...). It's really up to classic players to get used to not abusing the most obvious exploit (though of course, there remain quite a few others). If we eventually get a proper DFU wiki working, the info can also be posted there.