Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:16 pm

Azteca, I love the work you all have already put into that Google doc - very impressive! I think it does a great job of flagging the main tasks for the new wiki. Just some thoughts (and sorry if any of this has already been discussed on discord; underlining used to try to clarify this ridiculous wall of text):

I think many of the bulleted topics in the doc could be usefully consolidated among a fairly small number of DFU wiki pages. Anything that's shared identically between DFU and classic Daggerfall should instead logically be updated on the classic Daggerfall wiki pages (controls, mechanics, gameplay explanations, etc. - e.g. how charm/pacify spells work), which would significantly reduce the amount of DFU-specific page content. In any case, working with your listed topics, here's a mini-brainstorm for the overall page layout:

-DFU:FAQ (high-level discussion of the project, with links to other classic Daggerfall pages and/or the below DFU wiki pages as appropriate)
-DFU:Differences from Daggerfall (this would probably be the biggest DFU wiki page by far, and would conveniently index complete lists of 1) all bugs/exploits fixed and 2) all features added including UI/control scheme/gameplay changes; certain major changes - e.g. character creation/resistance mechanic changes - may be broken into their own dedicated sections; Banshee's topic at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1662, though an incomplete list, would be a useful starting point here; although this page would have a lot of info, I would strongly prefer all of these differences to be in one place with a linked index at the top of the page and dedicated sections within the page addressing major changes)
-DFU:Installation and Troubleshooting (repository for all related topics, including DFU base installation, location of saves, logs/inis, common technical problems and solutions)
-DFU:Mods (high-level discussion of modding and mod installation)
-DFU:Mods:Graphics, DFU:Mods:Quests, etc. (I'm leaning towards thematic instead of alphabetical organization, e.g. "Mods:Graphics" would include descriptions and links to DREAM, AlexSig's models mod, etc., "Mods:Questing" would host links to Jay_H's and similar mods, etc.; the Nexus can be referenced for help with defining mod categories)

FYI as to my involvement, although I've been active on the forums on and off over the past few months, I'm afraid I can't commit myself to a specific schedule to assist with this (I've been traveling for extended periods for work this year and have often had a fair amount of free time in the evenings, but when I'm home with family I want to focus more on RL stuff). That said, my personal priority has been and will likely continue to be updating the classic Daggerfall pages as a "base"/companion to the DFU-specific pages (see my notes above). I've already made some significant (I hope) improvements to the 8 "Races" pages (clarified racial advantages etc.), the "Attributes"/"Combat"/"Critical Strike"/"Dodging"/"Stealth"/"Reputation" pages (expanding on classic Daggerfall gameplay bugs and mechanics), and the "Armor"/"Artifacts"/"Items"/"Weapons" pages (correcting information on equipment material modifiers, classic Daggerfall UI display bugs, etc.). Currently, I'm hoping for more data to further edit the Armor page (see discussion at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2478#p28907), and am following another discussion - classic testers needed! - re: Reputation and a possible DFU bug (see discussion at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2424&start=30#p28691). Beyond that, I'd like to just continue to pick away at pages that need updating as I have the time.

This is about all from me for the mo. Really happy to see you all take the initiative on this - a clear and organized DFU wiki will help the community immensely, including the developers who have had to devote a huge amount of time recently answering the same questions repeatedly. Will keep a close eye on progress!

Ommamar
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by Ommamar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:53 am

I am all for a wiki but would like it separated from the UESP, which is incomplete or just plain wrong in some cases. I was just watching someone do a lets play and couldn't figure out that the poison effecting him had lowered his willpower. Once he did figure it out he couldn't figure out how to deal with the situation. He went to the UESP in several different places and it just confused things further.

I am curious mikeprichard how you are separating the information from classic and DFU, I thought maybe a note that the information applied to DFU but I wonder if that would just be more confusing.

It has been suggested else where but maybe there could be a default primer on Daggerfall placed in a new build inventory with an option in the DFU launch menu to disable it. Nothing in depth but just tidbits about how poisons and diseases are dealt with, some mention of monsters that require a certain material to deal damage, the common spells found in the different magic skills, a short break down of what each temple considers important (i.e. those well versed in these skills have done well in this temple)

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:42 am

Ommamar, I couldn't agree more that many of the UESP classic Daggerfall pages right now are doing more harm than good - that's why I'm trying to work with everyone to improve them! But if I understand you correctly, I think we should try to avoid mentioning DFU within the classic pages - I get the impression the UESP site admins wouldn't want that to happen anyway. Instead, my suggestion is to host DFU in a separate branch on UESP (which I think is a great format, and also the place where most TES players look first for information), but only use the DFU branch to describe things unique to DFU. Not sure if I'm making any sense... but those are my two cents.

As to more in-game information about game systems (including, but not limited to, an overhauled tutorial), I'm also very much in favor of that, but that would require a lot of work by people who - unlike me - actually know what they're doing on the technical side. Not saying it will never happen, and I really hope it eventually somehow will, but fixing the wiki is probably the more urgent and easily met need at this point.

Ommamar
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by Ommamar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 am

The only fear I have is that people won't grasp the difference between the information for classic and DFU, even if we put in big flashing letters applies to DFU only if we use a separate UESP page. Although classic Daggerfall is the basis for DFU I feel they play very differently so a link to the UESP might just confuse people more.

I don't think putting the information text together would be to difficult, putting a book in the game might be a whole other issue. I do recall something being said about custom books so if that is implemented it would be a great use of them.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 am

If they go to the DFU FAQ planned for UESP on the DFU branch, the differences can be very clearly laid out there, so I don't see the problem personally. There is an element of RTFM to all this... :)
Last edited by mikeprichard on Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Azteca
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by Azteca » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:11 pm

Ommamar wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 am
The only fear I have is that people won't grasp the difference between the information for classic and DFU, even if we put in big flashing letters applies to DFU only if we use a separate UESP page. Although classic Daggerfall is the basis for DFU I feel they play very differently so a link to the UESP might just confuse people more.
We discussed where to host the wiki quite a bit and ultimately:
1) we were going to have to link to UESP for a lot of info on classic Daggerfall mechanics, quests, etc.
2) the alternative to being hosted on UESP was to put together a wiki from scratch through a crappy free service.
3) if UESP needs lots of work on their Daggerfall pages, and it is the "go-to" resource for TES players, why not correct those pages and make item 1 more useful? Lots about DF has been reverse-engineered in the development of DFU.

FAQ, total n00b guides, etc. are all in our plans, whether they are hosted on the Wiki as pages or PDFs. But as Mike said, this is a game where you are going to have to read about it, period. It's just too complex. A custom book so people don't have to alt+Tab out sounds good, but it has to be written first. That's what we are focused on: let's get the information written up, and written well, then make it available.

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Azteca
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by Azteca » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:13 pm

And Mike, of course I read your initial reply and I value that insight. Thank you.

Ommamar
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by Ommamar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:33 pm

Azteca wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:11 pm
Ommamar wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 am
The only fear I have is that people won't grasp the difference between the information for classic and DFU, even if we put in big flashing letters applies to DFU only if we use a separate UESP page. Although classic Daggerfall is the basis for DFU I feel they play very differently so a link to the UESP might just confuse people more.
We discussed where to host the wiki quite a bit and ultimately:
1) we were going to have to link to UESP for a lot of info on classic Daggerfall mechanics, quests, etc.
2) the alternative to being hosted on UESP was to put together a wiki from scratch through a crappy free service.
3) if UESP needs lots of work on their Daggerfall pages, and it is the "go-to" resource for TES players, why not correct those pages and make item 1 more useful? Lots about DF has been reverse-engineered in the development of DFU.

FAQ, total n00b guides, etc. are all in our plans, whether they are hosted on the Wiki as pages or PDFs. But as Mike said, this is a game where you are going to have to read about it, period. It's just too complex. A custom book so people don't have to alt+Tab out sounds good, but it has to be written first. That's what we are focused on: let's get the information written up, and written well, then make it available.
Yes I have followed this thread so I have read the discussion and understand why you made the decision you did, doesn't mean I have to agree with the consensus. Regardless I am still willing to help out, I was actually going to correct some information regarding poison on the UESP, then realized the way it works in DFU and classic is different. Although I recall it occurring in classic on certain builds it didn't seem as detrimental as in DFU, this could be wrong but honestly I have no desire to play classic when I can play DFU.

I am in no way suggesting that a primer book should or even could replace a full blown wiki with in depth information. It would be designed to give enough information to give the player an idea of what path to take. I agree the first step should be a compilation of information. Is there a google doc or something being utilized for that purpose?

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:48 pm

Ommamar, as long as you're positive about the accuracy of the changes you're going to make regarding classic Daggerfall information such as poison mechanics (confirmation of how something actually works in classic Daggerfall through game code reverse engineering evidence on these forums/git data is the standard, unless it's something that can be 100% verified in-game such as UI information), I strongly encourage you to sign up for a UESP account and make your changes while logged in! If it's anything you're in doubt about in terms of formatting changes or anything else you want to kick around with other UESP regulars first, you can use the "discussion" tab at the top of any UESP page, then "edit" that discussion page as you would any other page to start/continue a conversation about the page content. Just be sure to "preview" any edits you make to any page before saving them to ensure you make one edit that gets the job done rather than a series of minor edits - the UESP admins will very much appreciate it. Good luck!

By the way, I just scanned the UESP "Poisons" page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Poison), and I'm not sure what may have confused that youtuber you mentioned. The page already mentions poison can reduce attributes (e.g. Willpower), and describes exactly how to cure it. May be yet another instance of the youtuber not RTFM, but I could be wrong. Regardless, if you do think there's relevant information on shared classic Daggerfall/DFU mechanics that's clearly missing or incorrect there - again, not stuff that's changed in/unique to DFU as opposed to classic - please make the edits you think are necessary. If you have info that's related to a DFU change to poison mechanics, that would go on the DFU wiki.
Last edited by mikeprichard on Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Azteca
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Re: Daggerfall Unity Wiki

Post by Azteca » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:28 pm

Ommamar wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:33 pm
I am in no way suggesting that a primer book should or even could replace a full blown wiki with in depth information. It would be designed to give enough information to give the player an idea of what path to take. I agree the first step should be a compilation of information. Is there a google doc or something being utilized for that purpose?
Yes, definitely, shared in my post addressing Mike: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hYh ... xj47dm1d6p

I hear your other concerns clearly, and they are fair. I have no desire to play classic Daggerfall either, and I never have.
I should clarify the way I have envisioned this wiki.
I was actually going to correct some information regarding poison on the UESP, then realized the way it works in DFU and classic is different
So in this case, because there is a difference, the DFU wiki would have its own page on poison. We could go into as much detail as we wanted about how it works in DFU, how it differs from classic, copy some info from the classic wiki page, etc. and provide a link to the classic page at the very bottom for the curious. The classic page being accurate is a win for everyone, so please do make those corrections, and we can repurpose that info on the DFU wiki.
The only time we would link to UESP's classic Daggerfall wiki in lieu of making a page is when there is no difference in DFU.
Linking to UESP pages instead of copying info and using it on DFU pages means the UESP page can be corrected and our link will always lead the user to the most current and correct information. If we simply cover everything in our own DFU wiki, then any change has to be performed in both places. I think in the early stages of the wiki, it is wise to link to UESP pages. Later, when we are confident the UESP pages are accurate and up-to-date, we can copy info into the DFU pages with less worry about keeping them in sync with UESP.
There are so many pages about factions and such that I don't think it would make sense to recreate every single one of those to make DFU's wiki totally self-contained, i.e. never having to link to UESP pages, especially when there is nothing new or different. Where there are differences, we will comment on them.

I hope this makes sense and I have articulated it clearly. We welcome your contribution!

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