From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
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dashyr89
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From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by dashyr89 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:25 pm

First, let me congratulate you. Being able to play Daggerfall at these resolutions with fluid control and a relative stability that the base game can only dream of is awesome. I really like where this is going. But, I ain't going to lie there is a couple of gripes with it that really starts grinding my gears.

I didn't even leave the tutorial dungeon before being, lacking other words, pissed. There is something >really< wrong with how damage and chance to hit is calculated. And something even worse when it comes to sleeping. I can only hope this is due to this engine being in Alpha and that it was not intended.

You see. I play a Breton as a spellsword. (Custom class with long blade expertise.). I know this is not the ideal setup for melee fights. I know that but in the original game that is what I ran with. I don't know if I am insane or anything but it seems way harder to hit anything and I keep dying on fights I'd usually get through with little frustration in the original game. Sure, I had my bad "rolls" and died even there at times. But, here it seems to be... hmm... very consistent. It looks like Daggerfall but somehow it dosen't feel like the same game at all in this regard. I seem to be taking damage way faster and struggle to hit way too much. It's hard to exactly explain in words since I cannot exactly see the dice rolls but it feels very different. Is this a porting project like DaggerXL or a re-imagination as in a complete re-balance? Because I sincerely cannot tell at this point.

Also, when sleeping you have the random chances to be attacked. But, I don't remember waking up to bears and >KNIGHTS< so fucking often on the original game inside the tutorial dungeon. I do not know how this was done but it feels wrong... very wrong coming from the original engine.

So yes, I am impressed but I have to ask... What the hell is going on with this? Is this intended or is it part of what is being worked on for the eventual 1.0 release?

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Ralzar
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Ralzar » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:44 pm

I miss quite a bit myself, but then I use the Iron Man Systems mod which changes the Critical Strike skill from a tohit buff to a critical hit effect. As far as I know, critical strike still work like vanilla in DFU without that mod.

I can't say I've had the level of problems you describe though. I've so far leveled a non-magic knight character to lvl19 and completed the Main Quest. Now I'm playing a Mage (not custom) and it's hard as hell compared to the knight.

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Jay_H
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Jay_H » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:45 pm

Welcome to the forums :)

DFU's monster spawn rate is actually lower than Daggerfall's. This has been adjusted several times, but no matter how much lower it goes, there are still complaints that it's too high. Interkarma's allowing mods to alter the spawn rate entirely so people can set it to whatever they like.

I haven't found DFU combat to be harder than DF's lately. It was that way back around 0.7, but since then the combat formulae have been improved significantly and I find it quite similar to Daggerfall. (Back then people also said DFU was too hard, so I made a video series showing otherwise.)

Neither DFU nor DaggerXL is a port of Daggerfall. The code for Daggerfall has been lost for nearly two decades, so there's no such thing as a "port." People have worked hard to reconstruct Daggerfall's mechanics piece by piece, and it isn't perfect, but it's close. The devs are happy to refine mechanics when people can provide hard proof that something isn't as it should be.

Ommamar
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Ommamar » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:27 pm

When I first started playing DFU the combat seemed way harder then I remembered. A couple of things I did that seemed to make a difference is select click to attack, if you prefer to use the classic swing the mouse setting I suggest adjusting and tweaking the mouse sensitivity. Initially things seemed very sluggish but got better once I had tweaked things around a bit.

I don't recall being woken up but I have had the experience of not being able to sleep because an enemy was on the other side of a wall that I would have to go way around to the other side of the dungeon to deal with it. I haven't played since 0.10.9 so this might be a new occurrence.

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pango
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by pango » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:35 pm

I'm starting to wonder if spawn rate while sleeping is the real issue (even if I don't exclude it yet; we've been discussing average spawn rate, but that's not sufficient to fully describe spawn distribution, for example), or if it could be a combination of several factors that could make the game significantly harder for some classes.

Say, improved AI. I'm currently re-watching an old classic Daggerfall run by Grimith, and when he gets hit during melee combat, it usually means he made a mistake. Because, no matter how high the reflex settings, there's a significant time window between when he gets in enemies' range and the time they attack. And even after that, they have a clear attack pattern that you can learn and adapt to. Add to this that monsters can get stuck on almost every hall corner, so it's must easier to lose them, retreat and recover.
So even if spawn rate during sleep is about the same, the fact that he needs to sleep less often, and that even when interrupted he has a good chance of killing his enemy without being hit once, makes it much less of a problem.

Improved AI is definitely good, but I wonder how it changes game balance, and how it could be counteracted.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

dashyr89
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by dashyr89 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:53 pm

Jay_H wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:45 pm
The code for Daggerfall has been lost for nearly two decades, so there's no such thing as a "port." People have worked hard to reconstruct Daggerfall's mechanics piece by piece, and it isn't perfect, but it's close. The devs are happy to refine mechanics when people can provide hard proof that something isn't as it should be.
Thank you for the warm welcome. I understand. I thought the source code was available and all. Wasn't aware it had been lost to time. Might explain why it dosen't truely feels the same. As for my issue I ended up cranking up my strenght and speed a bit more than I'd usually do. Slightly more overpowered than what I usually run with but hell, if it is what it takes... Starting to explore and so far it is a very fun ride. Entering the city of Daggerfall for the first time with this engine is an odd feeling... Fills me of joy just like it did back in the days. My nostalgia approves of this.

To some extend, combat not being exactly the same... I kind of can get behind that. I mean, if it is done with the right mindset it can be a very good thing. Daggerfall itself was rushed out of the door so it sure has flaws. I just hope it won't encourage breaking the system so hard it ain't even funny. Even the base game has a balance that pushes the player to abuse the advantage/disadvantage system a lot. So if the game is to be somewhat reworked when it comes to combat (out of choice or necessity.) it would be great if this was addressed.

Otherwise, I still feel more care should be given to the random encounters when sleeping. Something odd is going there. I feel that while I am having fun now... This will make dungeons more infuriating than it has to be. And it makes me save constantly wich, to me, is a problem. With the original game I saved often because it is broke beyond beliefs. Here, I hoped I could let immersion seep in and I'm stuck saving scumming all the same but for a different reason.

I still really love where this is going and I cannot wait to see where this project will end up going. :)

BansheeXYZ
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by BansheeXYZ » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:20 pm

Can you make the same character and post a savegame at the start of the dungeon?

dashyr89
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by dashyr89 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:20 pm
Can you make the same character and post a savegame at the start of the dungeon?
To be fair, that it isn't exactly the same is not that much of an issue. Took some time to think about it and it feels like an improvement once the initial frustration is gone and that I have adapted to the change. Playing more carefully. My only complain would be the spawn while sleeping that I find a bit off... MIght be just me. But, I just find it's a bit exagerrated to the point im scared of sleeping and have to save scum everytime.

Handing over a savefile would be useless as 9/10 it will end up as "Your character is bad.". Wich I sincerely don't care that much about as I always did that with the base game and managed to scrape by okay. I expect to have issues at times but it seems way more amplified here. I'd need to play quite more to see if it is an improvement or a real problem.

After all I cannot expect this to perfectly emulate the original game since, as people said, the source code was lost. I also read on the forums that the AI was much improved wich my be the reason why I have more issues than I did before. In any case, I'll give it more time and if I end up considering it a huge issue I'll gladly provide a savefile. I think wisdom dictates I wait a bit before giving a proper opinion.

dashyr89
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by dashyr89 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:14 pm

Anyway, I found a couple of mods I really enjoy. The Quest Pack Vol. 1, Immersive Villagers Overhaul, Convenient Clock, Warm Ashes and Skyshards. So, now I FINALLY got a clock, a bigger variety of quest, a reason to explore and cities that feels more diverse and alive.

Any suggestion of mods you guys can give me that adds to the game without feeling too much like a departure from the base game? I'm looking for a vanilla + kind of thing.

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pango
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by pango » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:23 pm

dashyr89 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:14 pm
Any suggestion of mods you guys can give me that adds to the game without feeling too much like a departure from the base game? I'm looking for a vanilla + kind of thing.
If you're looking for even more stuff to do, you can add the Archeologists guild mod to the mix.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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