From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
Consequence of Grace
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Consequence of Grace »

pango wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:03 am I submitted a fix for that, hopefully it'll make it soon
Excellent!

Another thing I noticed recently with the latest build is that those imps are casting invisibility on themselves!

Either that, or they are vanishing into walls!


Cheers!

[edited for tyop}
Last edited by Consequence of Grace on Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pango
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by pango »

Consequence of Grace wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:49 am Another thing I noticed recently with the latest build is that those imps are casting invisibility on themselves!
That matches classic...
Actually in classic most casters begin by casting invisibility on themselves
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Ralzar
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Ralzar »

theJF wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:26 pm I guess a lot of players will be resting in this space and it is where getting disturbed is most annoying.
In DFU my rest was disturbed 7 times out of 12 by rats, bears, rogues and warriors.
In Classic I was only disturbed twice in 22 rests.
Since DFU strives to be as close to vanilla as possible (except for some bug fixes etc), Wouldn't it be an idea to set moster spawning in dungeon while sleeping to just make a d100 roll or something that needed to succeed for the monster to actually spawn? If I remember from earlier discussions about this, the problem was that classic DF often spawned monsters in impossible places, which caused them to not appear making the practical spawn rate much lower in dungeons.

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pango
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by pango »

Ralzar wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:47 pm Since DFU strives to be as close to vanilla as possible (except for some bug fixes etc), Wouldn't it be an idea to set moster spawning in dungeon while sleeping to just make a d100 roll or something that needed to succeed for the monster to actually spawn? If I remember from earlier discussions about this, the problem was that classic DF often spawned monsters in impossible places, which caused them to not appear making the practical spawn rate much lower in dungeons.
I gave a more precise, and hopefully more accurate, description of what seems to happen in classic.
Let's try to implement that and see if it indeed feels like the original.
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mikeprichard
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by mikeprichard »

Yes, as pango's said a few times, his testing referenced earlier in this topic (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2973&start=10#p35721) should be the basis for how dungeon spawns work in DFU to ensure they better match classic's behavior.

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Interkarma
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Interkarma »

I have confirmed Pango's observations and have added a few of my own. Here's the short version:
  • The "enemies nearby" test in classic has different usages. Enemies can interrupt rest and prevent fast travel at up to 1024 units (~25m), which is the classic enemy spawn distance. However, the test for initiating rest is much lower, around 12m. At this time, DFU is using spawn distance for all checks which is why it can be difficult to initiate rest.
  • Also, player cannot initiate rest while being pursued by an active enemy AI. Player must first shake the AI so it becomes idle again.
  • Classic uses a monster awareness mechanic to determine if player rest can be interrupted by a random spawn. If a monster becomes aware of player, or player attempts to rest near monsters, then awareness is raised and a chance of random spawn will be enabled. This is the time and chance value we've been using always, but it should only become active when awareness is raised.
  • Player is able to remove monster awareness by either killing the monster(s) aware of them or moving away long enough for their awareness to decline (seems to lower about every 8 hours).
This awareness mechanic explains the impression of "safe zones", something I incorrectly interpreted as classic being unable to place spawns in the vicinity. Please note that only dungeons use this mechanic. Wilderness, dungeon exteriors, and towns use a flat chance over time for spawns.

So firstly, big congrats to Pango for uncovering this behaviour. As far as I'm aware, he's the first person to ever make this connection. I certainly didn't. :)

Secondly, I'm working on some changes now to lower distance check when initiating rest and to introduce a first pass at this awareness mechanic to dungeon spawns. The end result, while probably not matching classic precisely, will be a much closer fit and should satisfy the complaints around enemy spawns being too numerous inside of dungeons.

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pango
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by pango »

Glad to help :)
And I'm very interested by your own observations, Daggerfall mechanics being unexpected once again...

Can't wait to test those changes
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mikeprichard
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by mikeprichard »

Nice - I knew I and others weren't crazy when we were trying to convince you things were off! :lol: Thanks to pango and Interkarma for this great info; really looking forward to the changes.

Consequence of Grace
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Consequence of Grace »

Excellent stuff!

Jeoshua
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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Post by Jeoshua »

So, the reason slopes were safe zones in Classic is that no monster was anywhere nearby within 12m nor could any monster become aware of the player due to their distance from legal spawn areas, basically being "between floors" ? I think that's what's going on here?

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