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Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:09 pm
by mikeprichard
pango wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:28 pm
The corridor spirals around the first 3 rooms, so it's almost impossible to find any place far enough from enemies that you can rest safely, and instead you awake some of the enemies you haven't killed yet and trigger new random spawns...
I was thinking the same about PH. It's a fairly unique dungeon in that respect, making the game's "tutorial" even more punishing for new players.

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:08 am
by Leeux
In my own experience, since I started playing Daggerfall Unity, I don't bother clearing/killing anything inside Privateer's Hold anymore... I just run to the exit, it's not worth it IMO, as you'll find yourself often in a failed game state while doing so, that depending on character build only RNG and multiple reloads can see it through.

Once you have a healing spell, or some other means of healing, and gained at least a couple level ups with training and doing simple quests, then I can safely go into dungeons again and not have issues anymore.

The start of the game is made much worse due to a combination of factors, IMO:
1. Lack of appropriate spells for you class, no matter what skills you've chosen.
2. Lack of alternate means of healing,
3. Lack of equipment and specially, a proper weapon that match you class' expertise and that's not of Iron quality.

I can say that I only attempt to kill stuff in PH when I built a class has the Ebony Dagger, and can use it.

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:59 pm
by Ommamar
Leeux wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:08 am
In my own experience, since I started playing Daggerfall Unity, I don't bother clearing/killing anything inside Privateer's Hold anymore... I just run to the exit, it's not worth it IMO, as you'll find yourself often in a failed game state while doing so, that depending on character build only RNG and multiple reloads can see it through.

Once you have a healing spell, or some other means of healing, and gained at least a couple level ups with training and doing simple quests, then I can safely go into dungeons again and not have issues anymore.

The start of the game is made much worse due to a combination of factors, IMO:
1. Lack of appropriate spells for you class, no matter what skills you've chosen.
2. Lack of alternate means of healing,
3. Lack of equipment and specially, a proper weapon that match you class' expertise and that's not of Iron quality.

I can say that I only attempt to kill stuff in PH when I built a class has the Ebony Dagger, and can use it.
Once I get out of PH I like to fast travel to Daggerfall to get equipped usually base line spells or a better then iron weapon I will go back to PH. I find it to be much easier to clear it from the top down then from the bottom up as I have never had the rest problem once I clear the first floor the entrance is on. I keep this up until I am equipped in at least Elven armor with a good amount if items in my wagon

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:34 pm
by Leeux
Ommamar wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:59 pm
Once I get out of PH I like to fast travel to Daggerfall to get equipped usually base line spells or a better then iron weapon I will go back to PH. <snip>
Yeah, same here!

Having a proper weapon (i.e. that matches your skill) in at least Steel (or any material that can use, and is not Iron) make a world of difference!
I usually stay in Gothway Garden and do stuff there until Lady Bri's letter arrive, myself... then I travel to whatever region I'm interested in staying for the run.

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 pm
by Consequence of Grace
dashyr89 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:25 pm
There is something >really< wrong with how damage and chance to hit is calculated. And something even worse when it comes to sleeping. I can only hope this is due to this engine being in Alpha and that it was not intended.

You see. I play a Breton as a spellsword.

I seem to be taking damage way faster and struggle to hit way too much.

I don't remember waking up to bears and >KNIGHTS< so fucking often on the original game inside the tutorial dungeon.
I completely agree.

But Computer Say No.

Except, experience says YES.

And so does the Man from Del Monte. ;)

Drow Nightblade, Breton Paladin, Reguard Warrior, it does not matter, in vanilla DF, I NEVER missed a RAT 10, 11, 12 times in a row, even with a steel tanto and a shortblade skill of 6.

Also, Knights and bears wake you up, when in vanilla it's rat, rat, rat, bat, rat, Archer, bat, rat, rat, Thief.

And in Vanilla you can rest MUCH more easily and get interrupted 10% to 20% as often as in DFU.

And as you proceed and clean out the whole place, the chance of "nearby" and being interrupted gets LESS in Classic. Until you can sleep for 8 hours 10 times in a row, then 10 hours 5 times, then 12 hours twice and get interrupted on the 3rd rest of 12 hours in the very top room. And then you're woken by a Thief that wandered in from the surface world.

I also agree that this is a fantastic project and I love it, but Privateer's Hold can be pretty annoying.

So all those with their numbers and figures and "Computer Say No", I'm sorry. The Bumble Bee DOES fly!

Maybe you need better tests?


;)

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 pm
by pango
Consequence of Grace wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 pm
Drow Nightblade, Breton Paladin, Reguard Warrior, it does not matter, in vanilla DF, I NEVER missed a RAT 10, 11, 12 times in a row, even with a steel tanto and a shortblade skill of 6.
No sure for this one.
From experience, because it is built on top of Unity mechanisms, DFU is more strict when it comes to hit detection, so if used to wave your weapon in the general direction of rats, make sure you aim at them. Try different attack distances, too close may be detrimental. Cornered rats may be harder to hit, because the wall may be hit instead.
Consequence of Grace wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 pm
Also, Knights and bears wake you up, when in vanilla it's rat, rat, rat, bat, rat, Archer, bat, rat, rat, Thief.
Did you enable "alternate random enemies selection", or whatever the option is called?
I recommend against using it in its current state.
Consequence of Grace wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 pm
And as you proceed and clean out the whole place, the chance of "nearby" and being interrupted gets LESS in Classic.
[...]
Maybe you need better tests?
See the results of the tests I did, in this very thread, it cloud explain some (or all?) the discrepancies you noticed

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:26 pm
by theJF
I was curious enough about this to do a little testing, but not curious enough to do enough testing to be statistically significant. So I don't claim any definitive conclusion can be made either way.
In both DFU and classic I started new games as the standard warrior. Killed the first rat and then hung about in the corridor between there and the archer up top.
I guess a lot of players will be resting in this space and it is where getting disturbed is most annoying.
In DFU my rest was disturbed 7 times out of 12 by rats, bears, rogues and warriors.
In Classic I was only disturbed twice in 22 rests.

DFU seems more stringent about not being able to rest due to nearby monsters. Combat seemed fine in both cases despite Classic's clunky controls.

I don't have a conclusion due to the tiny sample size, except that Classic is really uncomfortable after the slick joy of DFU. So thanks again for this awesome engine.

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:30 pm
by Consequence of Grace
pango wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 pm
Try different attack distances, too close may be detrimental. Cornered rats may be harder to hit, because the wall may be hit instead.
Yes, and imps and bats can fly down into the ground and be impossible to hit. I suppose more practice will help, and I found that facing forward rather than looking down at the rats helps a lot. But then, I'm not aiming at all as I can't even see them.

Rats and bats leap through as I open the door and hit me instantly most of the time. But they should not be biting through the Dwarven armour I gave my Paladin via the Questionnaire. :lol:
pango wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 pm
Did you enable "alternate random enemies selection", or whatever the option is called?
No indeed! I had enough trouble without making it worse! :o
The random Wandering Monster tables should not include the harder creatures in Privateer's Hold, and there should be a sliding scale of % chance for a wanderer: the longer you rest the more chance of being disturbed, EG 5% for 6 hours to 15% for 12 hours, or 2% chance per hour or something.
pango wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 pm
See the results of the tests I did, in this very thread, it cloud explain some (or all?) the discrepancies you noticed
I'll take a look, cheers!

I feel a bit crappy "complaining", I love this project and salute and praise the creator, I'm just trying to give constructive feedback.

Cheers!

:)

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:42 pm
by Consequence of Grace
theJF wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:26 pm
In DFU my rest was disturbed 7 times out of 12 by rats, bears, rogues and warriors.
In Classic I was only disturbed twice in 22 rests.

I don't have a conclusion due to the tiny sample size
That matches my experience pretty closely. it's obviously a real phenomenon.

I made two identical characters and went through with Unity and DOS Box, resting every time I killed something.

In DFU it was vastly more difficult (like your 7/12 or worse)
In Vanilla, it was as I remember (like your 2/22 or better)

In the very top room, I rested for about 6.5 days in Vanilla before being interrupted.

My interpretation is that, quite properly for these AD&D-esque RPGs, the ecosystem of Privateer's Hold had been annihilated and completely wiped out in Classic.
So you'd be interrupted only by rats and bats coming in through the sea shore cave, or adventurers coming in through the surface exit.
So the frequency of Wandering Monsters would decrease as you clear the place out until it would have to be repopulated by creatures from outside.

I'm sure lots of us have played AD&D etc and been DMs in the past! :)

Cheers!

:)

Re: From a long time fan of these games... I got a small gripe with this.

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:03 am
by pango
Consequence of Grace wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:30 pm
Yes, and imps and bats can fly down into the ground and be impossible to hit.
I submitted a fix for that, hopefully it'll make it soon