Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
DaveCastle
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:01 pm
Location: Hungary

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by DaveCastle » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:05 pm

OP you may also want to mention that there's a dedicated button for sneaking, bound to R-Alt (I think?) by default. It's very confusing because the Unity menu says it's for looking around (since the functions are listed in one particular mode only). Using it makes you move even slower but harder to detect.

Didn't the Unity version patch the Critical hit skill to work as stated by the game manual instead of giving a small to-hit boost?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
- Mark Twain

Ommamar
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:08 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Ommamar » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:28 pm

DaveCastle wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:05 pm
OP you may also want to mention that there's a dedicated button for sneaking, bound to R-Alt (I think?) by default. It's very confusing because the Unity menu says it's for looking around (since the functions are listed in one particular mode only). Using it makes you move even slower but harder to detect.

Didn't the Unity version patch the Critical hit skill to work as stated by the game manual instead of giving a small to-hit boost?
No critical hit skill still just affects your hit chance. There is the code around on the forum that shows how it works or you go look at it on github.

DaveCastle
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:01 pm
Location: Hungary

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by DaveCastle » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:56 am

Thanks, I'll just take your word for it.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
- Mark Twain

User avatar
Dubiousintent
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Dubiousintent » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm

"Crouching" (default <C>) is not the same as "Sneaking" (default <Left-Alt>), which reduces movement speed by 50% as well as the chance to be heard. "Crouching" reduces character height, enabling movement under some obstacles. The latter has no effect on being heard or seen by an enemy. (Later TES games conflated "crouch" with "sneak" causing this confusion, though it was never the case for Daggerfall Classic.)

See this thread.

Jeoshua
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:25 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Jeoshua » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:58 am

I don't think you understood the crouch and sneak thing. The ultimate take away for stealth is that you get to determine if you stay hidden if you are moving at half maximum speed or less. That means sneaking, crouching, standing still, or swimming.

User avatar
Dubiousintent
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Dubiousintent » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:20 am

Jeoshua wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:58 am
I don't think you understood the crouch and sneak thing. The ultimate take away for stealth is that you get to determine if you stay hidden if you are moving at half maximum speed or less. That means sneaking, crouching, standing still, or swimming.
I'm assuming that was addressed to my response; because it was taken from my draft wiki page. If it wasn't, just ignore this. I'm seeking clarification; not an argument nor nitpicking.

My understanding is that "stealth" is a passive roll check that automatically occurs when you are within "range" (however that is determined in various circumstances), based upon movement speed (for hearing) and "line of sight" (for vision). It appears from the referenced thread [hmm; this thread but not that one upon checking] that exceeding 50% of movement speed just means there is no chance of being "stealthy". Movement at less than 50% (which "sneaking" triggers) provides a chance to be "not detected" based upon your stealth skill and the roll.

Did I miss something somewhere that "crouching" reduces movement speed by half? [And to answer my own question, from the newly referenced "Cracking Open Combat" thread crouch is a 77% reduction of base speed (which is formula and not the stat), it will always fall below the stealth check needing <50%. So it does affect stealth checks and that (at least) is what I have wrong.] Otherwise I thought I had said the same thing in fewer, different words. If you care to propose a different phrasing for the wiki, I'm open to suggestions.

Oh! Perhaps you mean I was too restrictive when I said "The latter [referring to 'crouching'] has no effect on being heard or seen by an enemy"? Does swimming reduce movement sufficiently to affect the stealth check? [From that same thread, swimming ignores the crouch speed penalty.] Any other form of movement?
Last edited by Dubiousintent on Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jeoshua
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:25 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Jeoshua » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:34 am

Basically the implication of your post seem to be that stealth works only when using sneak mode, and that's not right. Stealth is always tried, but moving greater that half maximum makes it fail. You don't need to use stealth mode crouch, or anything. Just go fast to break it.

I wasn't meaning to be confrontational either, just you got specific and it might have seemed misleading to some.

User avatar
Dubiousintent
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Dubiousintent » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:47 am

Just attempting to avoid misunderstandings, and I appreciate the correction. Still finding my way around the information here in the forum.

[Edit] Revised wiki wording:

Note: "Crouching" (default <C>) is not the same as "Sneaking". It does reduce movement below 50% of base speed (walking), which provides the passive "stealth" skill the chance to avoid being heard. [See Stealth.] "Sneak" takes your current movement speed, reduces it by 50% and another 1 point (so it is always less than 50%). Thus "Sneak" can apply while running, riding a horse, or levitating. That might not be sufficient for "Stealth". (Later "The Elder Scrolls (TES)" games conflated "crouch" with "sneak" causing this confusion, though it was never the case for Daggerfall Classic.)

Jeoshua
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:25 am

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Jeoshua » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:46 am

Sounds right to me. Especially important is the "passive" part, since later games made stealth into an active skill that you need to be in a mode to even attempt.

User avatar
Ralzar
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Non-Obivious things in DFU (beginner's guide)

Post by Ralzar » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:20 am

DaveCastle wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:05 pm
Didn't the Unity version patch the Critical hit skill to work as stated by the game manual instead of giving a small to-hit boost?
The Ironman System mod changed Critical Strike to cause critical hits instead of increasing tohit chance.
However, Ironman System is not updated for the newer build at the moment.
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

Post Reply