No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

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Kraggy
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No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by Kraggy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:09 pm

Yes, I've read the "differences" page on the UESP wiki and I didn't see anything about this topic apart from the discussion High Elf paralysis resistance.

I'm basing this post on the results of poking around the chargen process and the SaveData.txt file in the SAVE0 directory after an initial game save. I wonder if some aspects of character creation are still to be implemented.

These are the main groups of settings I'm not seeing:

1) Racial attribute variances

Taking a look at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races and using an Argonian Male as a test case, where would I see the changes to the attributes shown there (the +10 AGI/SPD and -10 END)?

The game's 'custom' chargen page shows all stats at 50, the page where you roll the dice all has values which are clearly 50-based so the +10/-10 don't seem to be applied there.

In the SaveData.txt file the "stats" block holds the values shown in the stats roll page of chargen and also the in-game character info page. Nowhere do I see racial variances numerically expressed or in fact in game-play, I was expecting to see them in the "raceTemplate" block where the High Elf's immunity to paralysis is stored.

2) Advantage/Disadvantage skill variances

This UESP page https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Background shows the effects of the questions you're asked when generating the character's history .. of course, this is where the famous Ebony Dagger comes from! .. and while UESP notes that some questions didn't have any effect in the original game, most do.

However, I don't see any trace of these when creating a character. For example, no matter what option I take for "As a child, your nickname was ___" none of the skills affected by that question appear to benefit from your choice, as when it comes to the final bonus point selection page (where you have 6 points per skill group to apply) the skill which should have been given a +6 boost from that question never seems to have a value that stands out as larger than the other skills in that group (eg. in the Misc. group all skills are roughtl 13-16 whereas I'd expect one to be reaching 20 if not larger).

3) Resistance variances

The UESP 'differences' page says all characters have a 50% resist across the board, and then goes on to explain what the effect of the 'critical weakness', 'Low tolerance', etc. options have, however the "resistances" block in SaveData has them all at zero.

UESP explictly mentions the High Elf's immunity to paralysis but doesn't mention, say, the Nord's 30% racial bonus so is one to assume that racial means a Nord has an 80% resistance, and also assume "low tolerance" applies a 25% penalty which is what the description of the High Elf case implies?

I can find no trace of this resistance behviour in the data, the "resitances" block has all values at 0 so it's not clear if these variances are implemented.

Am I missing someting glaringly obvious here or is this still work in progress?

I'm not trying to poke holes, criticise or complain, I'm genunely trying to make sure I understand what is and isn't implemented right now. I'm not really interested in how these character stats are stored, but especially with the first case of the Racial Attributes I'm really not sure that they exist.

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Interkarma
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by Interkarma » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:29 pm

Character creation is fully implemented as per classic. You need to consider the source code as well. What you're missing is all here.

I'll try to give you some brief detail on those three points and where you need to look in code.

1) Racial attribute variances - These are always overwritten by class starting attributes during character creation. You're right they essentially don't exist, but they don't in classic either. DFU behaves as classic here.

2) Class questionnaire - These adjustments are assigned at the end of character creation. Skill values you see in save data are the outcome of those changes. Changes are driven by the same BIOG*.TXT files that classic uses. Step through CreateCharChooseBioWindow_OnClose() in DaggerfallStartNewGameWizard.cs with debugger to see what's happening and confirm data is applied.

3) Resistance variances - These are applied at runtime as part of the saving throw formulas. What you're after is in SavingThrow() method of FormulaHelper.cs. Step through in a debugger to confirm racial resistances are applied.

Kraggy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:09 pm
Am I missing someting glaringly obvious here or is this still work in progress?
The best answer here is "neither". It is not obvious and it is not still in progress. It's just more complicated than looking at save data alone.

Kraggy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:09 pm
I'm genunely trying to make sure I understand what is and isn't implemented right now.
Other than bug fix and polish (and a couple of very minor items) Daggerfall Unity reached parity with classic Daggerfall in August 2019. See the roadmap for more detail.

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Ralzar
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by Ralzar » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:33 pm

Just tooting my own horn here for a sec:

Races Redone

This mod has the option to apply the vanilla attribute effects after character creation.

;)
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

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mikeprichard
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:52 pm

Kraggy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:09 pm
1) Racial attribute variances

Taking a look at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races and using an Argonian Male as a test case, where would I see the changes to the attributes shown there (the +10 AGI/SPD and -10 END)?

The game's 'custom' chargen page shows all stats at 50, the page where you roll the dice all has values which are clearly 50-based so the +10/-10 don't seem to be applied there.
This is already described at the top of the UESP page: custom classes override the racial attribute modifiers.

However, per Interkarma and my own testing in both DFU and classic, the listed racial attribute modifiers never actually apply, making the entire UESP page very misleading. I will now remove references to those "false" attribute modifiers throughout the UESP race pages, and point back here for reference in my edits to the pages. This must be yet another Daggerfall manual/Chronicles thing that was never properly implemented in game and/or was changed prior to the game's final release. (Interkarma: do you know exactly where these unimplemented racial "attribute modifiers" were referenced in classic game documentation and/or data?)
Last edited by mikeprichard on Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ralzar
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by Ralzar » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:07 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:52 pm
Kraggy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:09 pm
1) Racial attribute variances

Taking a look at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races and using an Argonian Male as a test case, where would I see the changes to the attributes shown there (the +10 AGI/SPD and -10 END)?

The game's 'custom' chargen page shows all stats at 50, the page where you roll the dice all has values which are clearly 50-based so the +10/-10 don't seem to be applied there.
This is already described at the top of the UESP page: custom classes override the racial attribute modifiers.

However, per Interkarma and my own testing in both DFU and classic, the listed racial attribute modifiers never actually apply, making the entire UESP page very misleading. I will now remove references to those "false" attribute modifiers throughout the UESP race pages, and point back here for reference in my edits to the pages. This must be yet another Daggerfall manual/Chronicles thing that was never properly implemented in game and/or was changed prior to the game's final release. (Interkarma: do you know exactly where these unimplemented racial "attribute modifiers" were referenced in classic game documentation and/or data?)
Do you mind leaving some version of that page intact that I can link to? I use that as a reference in my Races Redone mod description. Maybe a page with "Rules according to the Rulebook" or something.
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

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mikeprichard
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:09 pm

Yes, the almost miraculously inaccurate DF Chronicles strikes again. Pages 22-25 of that rag list alleged starting attribute ranges for each race and gender, but I tested many new characters in classic with pre-made classes, and was regularly able to generate starting attributes outside those ranges. If anyone still has a paper copy of this "guide", and is running low on toilet paper...
Ralzar wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:07 pm
Do you mind leaving some version of that page intact that I can link to? I use that as a reference in my Races Redone mod description. Maybe a page with "Rules according to the Rulebook" or something.
It's actually in the DF Chronicles, so to avoid confusion, I'll just add a reference to that and indicate the attribute modifiers were never implemented in game. You can find a copy yourself at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2tnhY ... F3R2c/view.

Kraggy
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by Kraggy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:20 pm

Interkarma wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:29 pm
Character creation is fully implemented as per classic. You need to consider the source code as well. What you're missing is all here.
I've never used Git, when I was using source control systems Git didn't eixst, last I used was SVN, so Github is a bafflement to me as to how to download source code; I did really consider that but a brief poke around Github made me think lief's too short to learn yey another source control system at my age!. :)

Anyhow, I appreciate your taking the time to deal with my points.

To be honest I wasn't aware racial attributes didn't work in FALL.EXE, but since it's something like 20 years since I last rolled a Daggerfall character my memory of it is kind of thin and could well be being clouded by more recent re-playing of Morrowind.

As for the class questions, I'm surprised I don't see what I was describing in my first post, if one MISC skill has received a bonus of +6 I'd expect that skill's value to stand out from the rest, but I'm not seeing that as far as I can tell. However, I'm not arguing, if you're confirming this is working then good, thanks.

Lastly, your comment on resistances confirms a hunch I had, that it's computed at run-time rather than pre-calculated at creation time.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to explain what's going on. Thank you.

Kraggy
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by Kraggy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:23 pm

Ralzar wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:33 pm
Just tooting my own horn here for a sec:

Races Redone

This mod has the option to apply the vanilla attribute effects after character creation.

;)
Toot away!

I am aware of your mod, it's on the list I have of mods to look into .. I've tinkered with DFU for over a year but this is the first time I've sat down to give it a real try, so there's much I still need to look at.

Cheers.

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mikeprichard
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:30 pm

Ralzar wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:07 pm
Do you mind leaving some version of that page intact that I can link to? I use that as a reference in my Races Redone mod description. Maybe a page with "Rules according to the Rulebook" or something.
I've now updated the UESP "Races" and related pages, referencing the fact that unimplemented racial attribute modifiers were mentioned in DF Chronicles.

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BadLuckBurt
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Re: No Sign of Chargen Options in Game or SaveData

Post by BadLuckBurt » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Kraggy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:20 pm
I've never used Git, when I was using source control systems Git didn't eixst, last I used was SVN, so Github is a bafflement to me as to how to download source code; I did really consider that but a brief poke around Github made me think lief's too short to learn yey another source control system at my age!. :)
There is actually a Download ZIP button when you click on the green Clone or Download button on Github so you don't necessarily need to use git. Not saying you have to, just letting you know that's an option too :)
Daggerfall Unity on UESP: https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=T ... fall_Unity
Daggerfall Unity on Nexus Mods: https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity
My github repositories with mostly DFU related stuff: https://github.com/BadLuckBurt

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