Automap (exterior) implementation
- Nystul
- Posts: 1501
- Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:31 am
Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
no worries. I am short on free time anyway at the moment. So whenever you find the time it is fine.
And yeah, I agree with you on hiding "residence" nameplates until they get named by quests
btw, vanilla df keeps named residences after completing quests, in my save a have 3 named residences on the automap.
it also keeps a plain "residence" on the automap. Any new "residence" will not be added for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post.
but I am fine if named residences revert to unnamed residences and consequently get hidden again after a quest is finished
And yeah, I agree with you on hiding "residence" nameplates until they get named by quests
btw, vanilla df keeps named residences after completing quests, in my save a have 3 named residences on the automap.
it also keeps a plain "residence" on the automap. Any new "residence" will not be added for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post.
but I am fine if named residences revert to unnamed residences and consequently get hidden again after a quest is finished
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Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
I think residences could show as "Residence" in the automap if you have actually checked that they are a residence, as opposed to e.g. a secret thieves' guild.Interkarma wrote:That's not quite how classic works. If you info-click on any home, it still adds a "Residence" tag to automap. And if that residence gets assigned a quest, the second tag will be dropped on top of the first. It's an ugly setup and I don't want to reproduce it at all. We seem to want the same thing here.Nystul wrote: My plan would have been to copy behavior of vanilla df regarding "residences". As long as it is an unnamed residence it won't show up on the automap.
- Interkarma
- Posts: 7247
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am
Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
Can you refresh my memory how Daggerfall marks secret thieves guilds on the automap?Al-Khwarizmi wrote: I think residences could show as "Residence" in the automap if you have actually checked that they are a residence, as opposed to e.g. a secret thieves' guild.
Wouldn't it make more sense to mark that building as "Thieves Guild" once discovered than to have dozens of ultimately useless "Residence" tags cluttering up the map?
All the "Residence" plate really communicates is "nothing here" - which is more cleanly communicated by not having a nameplate at all.
- Jay_H
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Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
Daggerfall Thieves Guilds are unmarked until PC is a member thereof. Once a member, the PC will always have the guilds marked on the town maps.
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Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
Well, if I remember correctly a "Residence" plate meant a residence where you had been, while no nameplate at all meant an unexplored one. So it did convey some information. Although I may easily be wrong because it has been a lot of years since I last played vanilla Daggerfall seriously.Interkarma wrote:All the "Residence" plate really communicates is "nothing here" - which is more cleanly communicated by not having a nameplate at all.
- Dragon
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:05 am
Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
Hi
I have been around as a lurker for a very long time even on the daggerxl days
Anyways, just liked to add, my 2 cents worth... Wouldn’t it be cool to have a residence nameplate, when changed to a real name when doing a quest, to remain forever? Especially when you buy a house in town or visit it later you can say ‘this where is did that quest’ just for nostalgic reasons?
Is that even possible?
I have been around as a lurker for a very long time even on the daggerxl days
Anyways, just liked to add, my 2 cents worth... Wouldn’t it be cool to have a residence nameplate, when changed to a real name when doing a quest, to remain forever? Especially when you buy a house in town or visit it later you can say ‘this where is did that quest’ just for nostalgic reasons?
Is that even possible?
- Interkarma
- Posts: 7247
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am
Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
Hey Dragon, welcome to the forums!
One of the problems with keeping these nameplates is that Daggerfall can (and does) reuse the same building for different quests with a different surname. Daggerfall doesn't even try to resolve this and just stacks all the nameplates on top of each other, leading to a cluttered mess.
See, it's not really "The Wicking Residence". None of the occupants are likely to even have that name. It's just some random "local/remote house1-4" with a random surname generated at the time quest was instantiated. There's no tracking in the game data to persist these names in the way shops can. Residences don't even have a name key at all. And the way Daggerfall resolves this is by just slapping down name stickers and hoping for the best. The core issue is actually that residences have no function before or after a quest they are involved in.
Check out the following automap image:
Now imagine that several of the buildings have been involved in one or more quests. Suddenly the signal to noise ratio goes down. Those shop names? They mean something, they're the signal. These are places of business and rest.
The residences however, outside of their involvement in a quest, are just noise. They subtract usefulness from the map by stealing eye focus away from functional, persistent buildings.
I appreciate the alternate points of view from you guys, it gives me more to think about. But I'm still not convinced that maintaining classic's sticker-mad behaviour here is wise or warranted.
One of the problems with keeping these nameplates is that Daggerfall can (and does) reuse the same building for different quests with a different surname. Daggerfall doesn't even try to resolve this and just stacks all the nameplates on top of each other, leading to a cluttered mess.
See, it's not really "The Wicking Residence". None of the occupants are likely to even have that name. It's just some random "local/remote house1-4" with a random surname generated at the time quest was instantiated. There's no tracking in the game data to persist these names in the way shops can. Residences don't even have a name key at all. And the way Daggerfall resolves this is by just slapping down name stickers and hoping for the best. The core issue is actually that residences have no function before or after a quest they are involved in.
Check out the following automap image:
Now imagine that several of the buildings have been involved in one or more quests. Suddenly the signal to noise ratio goes down. Those shop names? They mean something, they're the signal. These are places of business and rest.
The residences however, outside of their involvement in a quest, are just noise. They subtract usefulness from the map by stealing eye focus away from functional, persistent buildings.
I appreciate the alternate points of view from you guys, it gives me more to think about. But I'm still not convinced that maintaining classic's sticker-mad behaviour here is wise or warranted.
- jman0war
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Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
I agree with not displaying 'Residence', and not having named residences persist.
It's too much clutter.
Maybe if the occupants of the 'Wickston Residence' were actually named 'Wickston' could it be considered.
But it would be a challenge to prevent random quests from recycling them.
And for what purpose?
NPC's don't have lives and routines.
It's too much clutter.
Maybe if the occupants of the 'Wickston Residence' were actually named 'Wickston' could it be considered.
But it would be a challenge to prevent random quests from recycling them.
And for what purpose?
NPC's don't have lives and routines.
Find my Vibrant Terrain Flats mod at Nexusmods: https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfalluni ... ?tab=files
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- Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:32 pm
Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
And, barring some future mainstream computer with the performance of one of today's supercomputers (Hi, me from 20 years ago!), they won't, either.jman0war wrote:I agree with not displaying 'Residence', and not having named residences persist.
It's too much clutter.
Maybe if the occupants of the 'Wickston Residence' were actually named 'Wickston' could it be considered.
But it would be a challenge to prevent random quests from recycling them.
And for what purpose?
NPC's don't have lives and routines.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.
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- Posts: 177
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:52 am
Re: Automap (exterior) implementation
Oh, that's a real pity. I didn't know the (vanilla) game had that imperfection.Interkarma wrote: One of the problems with keeping these nameplates is that Daggerfall can (and does) reuse the same building for different quests with a different surname. Daggerfall doesn't even try to resolve this and just stacks all the nameplates on top of each other, leading to a cluttered mess.
See, it's not really "The Wicking Residence". None of the occupants are likely to even have that name. It's just some random "local/remote house1-4" with a random surname generated at the time quest was instantiated. There's no tracking in the game data to persist these names in the way shops can. Residences don't even have a name key at all. And the way Daggerfall resolves this is by just slapping down name stickers and hoping for the best. The core issue is actually that residences have no function before or after a quest they are involved in.
Hoping for a mod in the future that makes the X residence always be called the X residence, and have occupants surnamed X.
Yes, I'm that kind of guy...