0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

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Crokadilla
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0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by Crokadilla » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:46 pm

Hello Daggerfall forums! This is my first time here and will even be my first time playing Daggerfall, just heard about the project to remake it and wanted to give it a shot.

So far my game has been running smoothly and I have just been getting used to things, but around level 3 I noticed a problem that affects a fairly large chunk of the gameplay - humanoid enemies seem to get stuck and wont chase me after getting a certain distance away from me. It looks like somewhere between 5-10 meters is where they get stuck, but if I start moving further away they will resume chasing me again until they get back to this point. Furthermore, it looks to me as if they are stopping mid-stride, like they are trying to reach me but cant. Animals and undead seem to chase me as normal however, I've only seen it happening to barbarians, sorcerers, thiefs, nightblades, etc. They can all still fire their ranged weapons so its not like they are completely harmless, but still. This matters for me because I am playing an Archery/Destruction type build with little emphasis on melee combat, meaning I am often trying to avoid those chasing me while firing my bow - except now I don't even have to run away, I can just sit there and shoot at them all day until they finally go down.

I first noticed this bug on a fairly heavily modded profile, but I also switched back to vanilla to test it and the problem persists. However, in case its relevant, here is the modlist im using for my main character:

DREAM
Post Processing
Real Grass
Vibrant WInd
Enhanced Sky
Birds in Daggerfall
Improved Interior Lighting
Handpainted Models
Convenient Clock
Archeologist's Guild
Daggerfall Skyshards
Loading Screen
Tedious Travel
Mountains and Hills
Roleplay Realism
Persistent Dungeons

Below is a link to a gyazo screenshot of the problem. That postion is what almost all the enemies who get stuck look like.
https://gyazo.com/b0d5b000316fa9511f9d4a86f990765e

Would love any and all help with this, as its big enough of a problem that I would really rather get it fixed before diving fully into the game.

Crokadilla
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by Crokadilla » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:34 pm

Bump + my save file, mods enabled. To test vanilla I just disabled all and started a new game but the problem still remained.
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pango
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by pango » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:36 pm

I can reproduce it, but I wonder if that's not just an IA tactic to shoot at you from some distance.
From what you describe, it may need some more tweaking to be effective against archery...
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

Crokadilla
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by Crokadilla » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 am

pango wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:36 pm
I can reproduce it, but I wonder if that's not just an IA tactic to shoot at you from some distance.
From what you describe, it may need some more tweaking to be effective against archery...
Hmmm... while that may be the problem, that doesn't actually sound right to me. When I was experimenting around with it, there were some rare times when one of the humanoid opponents would actually seem to be able to break through the invisible wall surrounding me, after which they chased me down as normal. This happened mostly with Mages just after they launched a magical attack, which makes me think that their pathing or AI or whatever somehow got fixed/reset after the blast. But this wouldn't be the case if staying back for ranged attacks is part of their base AI, they would just go back to standing near me all the time. I've also had a couple warriors/sorcerers occasionally chase me down normally, but far more rarely and without any visible reason for breaking from the norm.

Of course, its entirely possible I'm wrong seeing as I have no expertise whatsoever in this, but from the behavior I've seen it display in testing, it makes me feel as if it really shouldn't be happening, or at the very least, that its not purposeful.

Do Humanoid enemies normally do this? It seems like if it was a common thing in Daggerfall it would've at least been mentioned before, but I didn't find anything when I searched.

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pango
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by pango » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:13 am

Crokadilla wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 am
Do Humanoid enemies normally do this? It seems like if it was a common thing in Daggerfall it would've at least been mentioned before, but I didn't find anything when I searched.
In classic Daggerfall, enemies rush straight at you, that's basically the amount o AI they have.. The only thing usually preventing it is that enemies easily get stuck on walls.
So classic Daggerfall cannot be used as reference for enemies AI.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

Crokadilla
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by Crokadilla » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:48 pm

pango wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:13 am
In classic Daggerfall, enemies rush straight at you, that's basically the amount o AI they have.. The only thing usually preventing it is that enemies easily get stuck on walls.
So classic Daggerfall cannot be used as reference for enemies AI.
Um, I think I am a bit confused. If enemies normally chase you down in classic Daggerfall, then how exactly can't that be used as a reference? Them chasing me down is exactly what I am looking for, and it doesn't seem like that behavior should really be changing between classic Daggerfall and Daggerfall Unity. Nor does it seem as if any of the mods should be affecting it.

So if this isn't supposed to be happening as part of the base original game, and its not purposefully being added by a mod, than the only logical explanation to me is that its a bug of some kind, or at the very least, that it's unintentional behavior.

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JorisVanEijden
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by JorisVanEijden » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:53 pm

This may be related to a bug introduced in 0.10.7 that I fixed in this PR which will be in the next release : https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... /pull/1496

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pango
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by pango » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:58 pm

Crokadilla wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:48 pm
Um, I think I am a bit confused. If enemies normally chase you down in classic Daggerfall, then how exactly can't that be used as a reference?
No, they're not "chasing" you in classic, they walk toward you as soon as they see you. I don't remember much path finding either, and I'm not sure about archery. That may have been fine in '96, but games AI improved a lot since then. Enemies behavior is much more fun and interesting with DFU improvements.
Crokadilla wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:48 pm
Them chasing me down is exactly what I am looking for, and it doesn't seem like that behavior should really be changing between classic Daggerfall and Daggerfall Unity. Nor does it seem as if any of the mods should be affecting it.
Well, actually that's an option that you can disable ("Enemies combat AI" under "Enhancements").
Spoiler: enemies still stop the same way, so in this case I agree it seems like a plain bug; With that option disabled I would have expected enemies behavior to match classic as much as possible.
I don't understand your remark about mods. Modders can do whatever they please, since nobody is forced to use a specific mod.
Crokadilla wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:48 pm
So if this isn't supposed to be happening as part of the base original game, and its not purposefully being added by a mod, than the only logical explanation to me is that its a bug of some kind, or at the very least, that it's unintentional behavior.
I'd say an oversight, yes. That said, for enemies with missile weapons, what would be the "correct" behavior in this situation? Rush at you every time you're using missile weapons? Should archers keep strafing? Find some cover? The latter would be very difficult to implement I assume, but my point is that rushing toward to player is not the only choice, and it may not even be the best one. They're lots of gray zones when it comes to enemies AI, there can be plain bugs but most of the time it's only degrees of playability
Last edited by pango on Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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pango
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by pango » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:03 pm

JorisVanEijden wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:53 pm
This may be related to a bug introduced in 0.10.7 that I fixed in this PR which will be in the next release : https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... /pull/1496
Dev build behaves exactly the same, 0.10.4 behaves the same, so it appears unrelated
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

Crokadilla
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Re: 0.10.7 Humanoid Enemies Get Stuck?

Post by Crokadilla » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:59 pm

pango wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:58 pm
No, they're not "chasing" you in classic, they walk toward you as soon as they see you. I don't remember much path finding either, and I'm not sure about archery. That may have been fine in '96, but games AI improved a lot since then. Enemies behavior is much more fun and interesting with DFU improvements.
Ah, I understand now. I didn't realize DFU made such sweeping changes compared to the classic, I kinda just assumed it was more of a bring-the-game-up-to-modern-standards-maybe-rebalance-it-and-bugfix-and-then-let-the-modders-do-the-rest type of deal.
pango wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:58 pm
I don't understand your remark about mods. Modders can do whatever they please, since nobody is forced to use a specific mod.
I just meant that the mods I currently have installed shouldn't be causing this. It was really just supposed to serve as a segway into my final point.
pango wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:58 pm
I'd say an oversight, yes. That said, for enemies with missile weapons, what would be the "correct" behavior in this situation? Rush at you every time you're using missile weapons? Should archers keep strafing? Find some cover? The latter would be very difficult to implement I assume, but my point is that rushing toward to player is not the only choice, and it may not even be the best one. They're lots of gray zones when it comes to enemies AI, there can be plain bugs but most of the time it's only degrees of playability
Yeah, I can definitely get that there are grey areas in complex AI, especially when multiple options exist to the enemies. For instance, I can totally see archers and other primarily ranged combatants hanging back or strafing (especially against melee players). However, in this particular case, even melee oriented opponents like Warriors can't get close to me. Its also not as if my enemies even are strafing or coming up with some tactic - its just that they cant get close, which is very different than a tactical decision from the AI. The fact that they will sit still is even worse considering they are up against an archer.

For now, I think I am just going to create a new melee oriented character and come back to my archer later in the hopes that this will eventually be fixed. However, I'd still love to know if there is anything that can be done.

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