guards keep chasing me

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jayhova
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by jayhova » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:39 pm

Hazelnut wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:22 pm
I originally had a message box that popped up if you tried to sleep in a city rather than allowing it and then HALT, HALT! It was changed to match classic by another dev, and I'm fine with that. You have to pay attention in daggerfall, and you can do stuff that leads to bad things... it's all part of the old school charm.

Not sure guards should still be chasing you when you flee the city though, that sounds wrong. Have you checked classic behaviour?
I have not checked classic behavior. I do find it odd but I know a lot of classic behavior is odd.

Actually, I do tend to agree that extra messages tend to alter the "charm" of classic consequences behavior. However, I think this alters the UI only enough to let the player know the consequences are not the same as sleeping out in the wilderness. This way there is no 'are you sure you want to do that?' message. Also, this lets the experienced player know they are far enough away from town that they are not breaking the law. There is also odd things like farms in the middle of nowhere having city guards come to arrest you for sleeping out in the fields. At least this way you know you'll get in trouble for that.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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mikeprichard
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by mikeprichard » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:01 pm

Yeah, the red backgrounds for the buttons seems like a fair light-touch "solution".

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jayhova
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by jayhova » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:38 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:01 pm
Yeah, the red backgrounds for the buttons seems like a fair light-touch "solution".
This is sort of my point. This is a 'problem'. Much like the wagon dungeon entrance problem. The best solution to that problem is to allow the player to access the wagon while near the exit.

The questions that need to be asked when looking at these issues are: Is this part of classic play experience?, Does removing or changing this change the the classic play experience?, What is the the lease obtrusive way this can be done to minimize the classic play experience?, Can this be made optional for those who wish to play the game as it was released?

My classic play experience was the same as now. Sometimes I am absent minded and click the wrong button. There is not separate loiter button. If there were, this would not be a problem. There isn't, despite the fact that waiting and resting are not the same thing. I'm okay with that. The rest menu is part of the classic experience. Also, Daggerfall allowing you to do stupid things is part of the classic experience. So to me this solution fixes the problem in the least obtrusive way. Or as you say a "light-touch "solution"".
Last edited by jayhova on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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mikeprichard
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by mikeprichard » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:41 pm

Yep. Hopefully Interkarma agrees, but we'll see.

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jayhova
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by jayhova » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:08 pm

The really tough part of this question is, 'When should these things be addressed as a mod and when should they be address in the main code?'. I think the only answer to that is when fixing the problem does not substantially impact how the game is played and the game experience fix it in the main code. The wagon/exit problem is IMHO a main code fix. In Interkarma speak a QoL issue. The fix is easily turned off for purists but virtually no one will.

Me, I think I would like to see several things changed about how loitering works. I would like to see it be possible to loiter in any guild in which you have membership for as long as you wish or and inn where you have paid for a room. If you go to a inn you may double loiter if you have bought a drink. You should be able to loiter indefinitely in any place you have business (quest) until that business is concluded. You should not be able to get around loitering by simply loitering repeatedly. You should not be allowed to loiter past the closing hours of any guild or business unless specifically allowed e.g. fighter guild. This however is firmly in the camp of mod whereas fixing the problem of accidentally clicking the wrong button is a QoL fix. Again, IMHO.

Of course these things Interkarma is the final arbiter of what is or is not a QoL fix. I bow before him in humble supplication. Lord hear our prayer. :D
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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mikeprichard
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by mikeprichard » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:22 pm

I completely agree with you in this case, but of course and as always, this is the big question for the community, with IK having the final decision.

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pango
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by pango » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:39 pm

In classic, guards seem to vanish when you leave the town zone.
And the guards next town seem unaware of your trespassing. Even going far enough and fast travel back to the same town clears the pursuing guards...

City guards are strict but not persistent, that's what makes attempt to sleep in towns:
- a way to introduce you to Daggerfall's law and justice system, the first few times;
- a "let's lose the cops" minigame if you ever forget about it later;

That also teaches you a tactic to feed when you're a lycanthrope :D
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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mikeprichard
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by mikeprichard » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:43 pm

Sure, that would still be possible just as in classic even if the rest icons are tagged with a red background. Don't want to deprive anyone of their werewolf snack options. :)

NoobioDF
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by NoobioDF » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:51 am

Jayhova, how did you go to the new province, and did you camp outside of town first before entering the city in the new province. I'm getting the feeling from some initial play that on occasion fast travel is leaving some leftover data from the previous events as you enter another city.

The safe way to do it is, leave the city with the chasing guards. Camp or fast travel to an Inn. Then Rest or Camp. The fast travel to another city. I'm going to bet that DFU has some issues if you just fast travel from within a city to another city directly, especially if you move directly into the new city with a forward run, instead of moving away a bit and then going into the City.

Other than that, I find all the solutions mentioned acceptable as a mere player.

I'm more concerned about what happened to Jayhova in another province. My memory of playing Daggerfall many years ago was that you could simply leave the city and they would not chase you in the next city. Certainly they will not chase you in another province. First, they aren't the same guards, possibly not even the same race or faction of guards (although the game probably has all guards of guards faction) and they have no similar government.

Now it might have been a coincidence. Jayhova, could you have committed a separate crime in that other province before, and the guards in the new province remembered the old crime in their province? If so, then it might not be them trying to catch you for a vagrancy crime of sleeping in the city of another province.

I also hope that down the road, after release at least, DFU will contain options that at least allow a RED BUTTON for knowing it is illegal choice, possibly a warning message (since the game does it for other things, and Morrowind does it for sleeping in another's bed the first time, why would this feature have been left out in Daggerfall, and what gain to ease of use is there to allowing this). But I'm pretty sure that traveling to another province was supposed to escape the guards and then slowly over time they forget about your old vagrancy in the old province as well. I believe the Manual mentioned it also.

I think certain QoL issues would be great to address, at least as configurable options, for things like -- Allowing you to access the Wagon ONLY FROM THE EXIT from the dungeon (as designed) and having the bug to get around it fixed and shut down.

I fail to see how having an choice that will commit a crime have a REDDENED BUTTON breaks the DFU near classic theme more than having some of the current options in the set-up to DFU, to be honest (such as INSTANT REPAIR -- don't recall that option in the original game).

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jayhova
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Re: guards keep chasing me

Post by jayhova » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:49 pm

NoobioDF wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:51 am
Jayhova, how did you go to the new province, and did you camp outside of town first before entering the city in the new province. I'm getting the feeling from some initial play that on occasion fast travel is leaving some leftover data from the previous events as you enter another city.
I outran the guards and then fast traveled. The new guards did not chase me until I was walking around in the new city (so I didn't drag guards to the new place from the old). I would pass near one and "HALT!"
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. PreAlpha 0.8.6

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