"Maintain Reputation" logic

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pango
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by pango » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:18 am

I don't see such logic in above code, so I guess reputations never cease to drop toward zero.
Whether this is correct is another matter, we saw several times in recent past that both Daggerfall documentation and the UESP could be wrong sometimes, so all I can hope is that this matches the behavior that was reverse-engineered...
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:25 am

If true, that would be a pain... Guess it can be tested in game, though.

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Jay_H
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Jay_H » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:48 am

There are a few save games on UESP that are rank 10 in various guilds. It'd be a matter of cracking open a save game editor, looking at their rep, and then travelling around for 2~ years and returning to the save game editor.
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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:03 am

I also have a DFU save with rep in the Fighters/Mages guilds at 70-something and 60-something. Will give these a shot to see how it currently works in DFU when I have a chance.

EDIT: My DFU reps were actually 80 and 72, respectively. After traveling for around 800 days, they were reduced by 7 points each to 73 and 65. However, due to my current low faction skill values, my actual starting faction ranks were only Warder (5th level rank available at 50 rep) and Magician (4th level rank available at 40 rep), so this isn't conclusive. More testing would be needed to see whether the rep loss would have been prevented had I also achieved faction ranks commensurate with the 80 and 72 faction rep values.

As for classic, I'm unable to test right now, as I don't have a working classic install (DaggerfallSetup doesn't work on my machine), but I may reinstall the working GOG version and try those UESP saves later if nobody else does in the meantime.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by BansheeXYZ » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:21 am

Faction rep decays by 1 every 3 months in classic (I think). Even if you reach 100, it still happens, I just checked.

Normal rep for types of people does not decay. I also just checked that.

The classic devs had a really good sense of priority. Armor and weapon values are both wrong, yet they somehow managed to punish the player for simply traveling across their enormous world. :roll:

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Jay_H
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Jay_H » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:41 am

Excellent work, Banshee. It's good to have some hard data in hand.
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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:46 pm

Banshee - does faction rep decay in classic not only if you have 100 rep, but also if you're at the top rank in the faction (see my edited post above)? Thanks for checking this.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by BansheeXYZ » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:05 am

Yes, it decays regardless of rank achieved. You won't get demoted, though, just expelled if it falls below 0.

I think quest access is determined by rep and not guild rank, though, so even though you avoid demotion and loss of guild services from decay, you'll probably lose access to certain quests.

If Hazelnut's quest selector list gets implemented, quests could show required rep in parantheses next to the quest name the same way it is shown in the affiliations window. Even though decay mechanics are hidden, this would at least show why you lost access to a quest you previously had access to. You'd be able to figure it out by comparing the numbers.

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Interkarma
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Interkarma » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:15 am

Thanks for checking that Banshee, very useful info!

I believe that DFU currently allows for a max-rank guild members to be demoted. That's something to improve on our end.

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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:30 am

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:05 am
Yes, it decays regardless of rank achieved. You won't get demoted, though, just expelled if it falls below 0.
Fixing the UESP pages is getting to be my full-time job, but I'm happy to do it - I've edited the Daggerfall:Reputation page according to Banshee's useful findings (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Reputation). However, I assume Banshee meant you'll get expelled from a joinable faction/guild if your rep falls "to 0", not "below 0", as I don't think rep decay will put you into negative/below zero territory. In any case, here's the relevant revised UESP page excerpt per my edit under the "Reputation Loss" section; the first three sentences were already on the page before my edit, and I left them unchanged:

A failed quest results in the loss of 2 reputation points with the faction, and one point with its associates and allies. An enemy faction will gain one point of reputation.

In addition, the reputation of your character with any faction or person (positive or negative) will get one point closer to zero approximately every three months if you don't complete a successful quest for them. In the case of joinable factions (i.e. "guilds", including Knightly Orders, the Fighters Guild, the Mages Guild, etc.), you will not be demoted below your current rank if your faction reputation drops below the minimum threshold for that rank; however, if your faction reputation drops to 0, you will be expelled from the faction.


One more question for Banshee - after you're expelled from the guild, is your rank completely "reset", such that if you try to join again, you'd have to join not only at rep 0, but also at rank 0? Or is it not even possible to rejoin a faction after being expelled?

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