"Maintain Reputation" logic

Post here if you need help getting started with Daggerfall Unity or just want to clarify a potential bug. Questions about playing or modding classic Daggerfall should be posted to Community.
BansheeXYZ
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by BansheeXYZ » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:22 am

Expulsion doesn't occur at 0, only if it goes negative. You must also talk to a guildmember while it is negative.

Decay happens at 1point per 112 days or whatever IK said, not 90 as I was trying to remember. Obviously, decay itself will never thrust you into expulsion territory.
One more question for Banshee - after you're expelled from the guild, is your rank completely "reset", such that if you try to join again, you'd have to join not only at rep 0, but also at rank 0? Or is it not even possible to rejoin a faction after being expelled?
You can rejoin once you get it to 0 and rank is reset, yes.

And yes, demotion is not a thing in classic. Just expulsion.

User avatar
pango
Posts: 1777
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:14 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by pango » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:01 am

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:30 am
However, I assume Banshee meant you'll get expelled from a joinable faction/guild if your rep falls "to 0", not "below 0", as I don't think rep decay will put you into negative/below zero territory.
That just means you won't get expelled just by running your reputation "run out"; But if you also participate to quests that hurt your reputation with that guild, basically go against guild interests, then you may get expelled.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

User avatar
mikeprichard
Posts: 826
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:32 pm

Thanks Banshee and pango - it's all clear now! What should now be the final relevant revised UESP page text (per my further edits just now - see https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Rep ... ation_Loss) is copied below:

In addition, the reputation of your character with any faction or person (positive or negative) will move one point closer to zero every 112 days if you don't complete a successful quest for them in that time. In the case of joinable factions (i.e. "guilds", including Knightly Orders, the Fighters Guild, the Mages Guild, etc.), you will not be demoted below your current rank if your faction reputation drops below the minimum threshold for that rank, or even if your faction reputation drops to 0. However, if your faction reputation drops below 0 (by participating in quests that damage your reputation with the faction; see the following sections below), you will be expelled from the faction. After expulsion, if your faction reputation returns to at least 0, you may then rejoin the faction at rank 0.

User avatar
Jay_H
Posts: 3014
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 am

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Jay_H » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:51 pm

Glad to see hard data getting put into the wiki! Great stuff guys! :)

Ommamar
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:08 am

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Ommamar » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:43 pm

Well a build I was playing last night after traveling went from 20 to 19 in the Temple of Mara, when I spoke to the quest giver she said something like we have lost faith in you so you have been demoted a rank. Reputation of 20 in that Temple is a big thing as you can buy potions but can't if your Reputation is 19. Since that build has no magic potions and items are important, so I grumbled but took two quest to make sure I had a cushion so if I traveled over 28 days I wouldn't be placed down to reputation of 19.

This might not be how it is intended to work but this is how it seems to work for temples at least.

Firebrand
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:07 pm

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Firebrand » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:52 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:32 pm
Thanks Banshee and pango - it's all clear now! What should now be the final relevant revised UESP page text (per my further edits just now - see https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Rep ... ation_Loss) is copied below:

In addition, the reputation of your character with any faction or person (positive or negative) will move one point closer to zero every 112 days if you don't complete a successful quest for them in that time. In the case of joinable factions (i.e. "guilds", including Knightly Orders, the Fighters Guild, the Mages Guild, etc.), you will not be demoted below your current rank if your faction reputation drops below the minimum threshold for that rank, or even if your faction reputation drops to 0. However, if your faction reputation drops below 0 (by participating in quests that damage your reputation with the faction; see the following sections below), you will be expelled from the faction. After expulsion, if your faction reputation returns to at least 0, you may then rejoin the faction at rank 0.
One thing I'd like to highlight: it looks like that in DFU even if you succesfully do one or more quest for a faction, after 112 days you get anyway the loss of 1 reputation point with them. I'm not sure about classic Daggerfall, but this is what happened to my character in DFU as I described in the first post of this topic...

Firebrand
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:07 pm

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Firebrand » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:54 pm

Ommamar wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:43 pm
Well a build I was playing last night after traveling went from 20 to 19 in the Temple of Mara, when I spoke to the quest giver she said something like we have lost faith in you so you have been demoted a rank. Reputation of 20 in that Temple is a big thing as you can buy potions but can't if your Reputation is 19. Since that build has no magic potions and items are important, so I grumbled but took two quest to make sure I had a cushion so if I traveled over 28 days I wouldn't be placed down to reputation of 19.

This might not be how it is intended to work but this is how it seems to work for temples at least.
As it is now, in DFU you get demoted for "running out of reputation" within a faction, while in Classic Daggerfall, as described above, you won't.

User avatar
mikeprichard
Posts: 826
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:13 pm

So as pointed out earlier and again just above, DFU apparently doesn't currently match classic when it comes to the DFU-unique faction rank demotion mechanic. Classic doesn't demote ranks.
Firebrand wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:52 pm
One thing I'd like to highlight: it looks like that in DFU even if you succesfully do one or more quest for a faction, after 112 days you get anyway the loss of 1 reputation point with them. I'm not sure about classic Daggerfall, but this is what happened to my character in DFU as I described in the first post of this topic...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "after 112 days": if it's the case that you successfully complete a faction quest, then 112 days pass without your completion of another faction quest and you lose 1 faction reputation after the 112th day, that's apparently working in line with classic.

User avatar
Hazelnut
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:46 pm
Contact:

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Hazelnut » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:38 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:13 pm
So as pointed out earlier and again just above, DFU apparently doesn't currently match classic when it comes to the DFU-unique faction rank demotion mechanic. Classic doesn't demote ranks.
I felt it was an oversight in classic and getting thrown out without any warning via demotions would be terrible, and the general consensus was to do this. There are messages available, but unused in classic - probably due to lack of time it was intended but never finished. A lot of the stuff I have done is like that.

I think distinguishing between intentional diverging changes from classic and restoring originally intended functionality that didn't make it in due to lack of time or bugs unsquished is really important here. I don't feel you're doing this, and would not call this DFU-unique. I didn't just decide to do it on a whim and write all the messages etc.
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

User avatar
mikeprichard
Posts: 826
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:27 pm

No worries, Hazelnut - you'll see I'm merely pointing out the factual difference between DFU and classic (keeping the wiki in mind), not making any judgments. I didn't suggest anywhere your work was done on a whim!

Anyway, I'd appreciate confirmation from Firebrand that I'm not misinterpreting his "after 112 days" statement (see above). I think we're all on the same page, but want to be sure.

Post Reply