"Maintain Reputation" logic

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Firebrand
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Firebrand » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:55 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:13 pm
So as pointed out earlier and again just above, DFU apparently doesn't currently match classic when it comes to the DFU-unique faction rank demotion mechanic. Classic doesn't demote ranks.
Firebrand wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:52 pm
One thing I'd like to highlight: it looks like that in DFU even if you succesfully do one or more quest for a faction, after 112 days you get anyway the loss of 1 reputation point with them. I'm not sure about classic Daggerfall, but this is what happened to my character in DFU as I described in the first post of this topic...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "after 112 days": if it's the case that you successfully complete a faction quest, then 112 days pass without your completion of another faction quest and you lose 1 faction reputation after the 112th day, that's apparently working in line with classic.
No, it's not that I completed quests for my factions, then I didn't complete any quest for them for 112 days. Quite the opposite! I'm just doing quests for them all the time, but after 112 days I lost 1 faction reputation the same :?
I'm not sure DFU implements the logic to prevent losing factions reputation If you complete quest for them in that period, I've stil found no evidence in the code about that.

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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:28 pm

Might be a DFU bug, then. But I'm still not quite clear on what you mean by "after" 112 days - what exactly is the starting point for the "after", if not your most recent completed faction quest? Do you mean that every 112 days that pass, your reputation with a faction always drops 1 point, even though you're successfully completing quests for that same faction throughout that entire period? If that is the case, it is a DFU bug. Sorry if I'm being dense!

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Hazelnut
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Hazelnut » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:45 pm

Firebrand is correct these mechanisms are not hooked into each other. If this is different from classic and someone can demonstrate that, then it's a DFU bug that we need to address. If it matches classic then is working as intended.. ;)

And, mikep, yep I am a prickly bugger sometimes especially when forced to see the Toddler's face all the time. :lol:
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

Ommamar
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Ommamar » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:12 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:28 pm
Might be a DFU bug, then. But I'm still not quite clear on what you mean by "after" 112 days - what exactly is the starting point for the "after", if not your most recent completed faction quest? Do you mean that every 112 days that pass, your reputation with a faction always drops 1 point, even though you're successfully completing quests for that same faction throughout that entire period? If that is the case, it is a DFU bug. Sorry if I'm being dense!
That is my understanding that every 112 days your faction is adjusted towards zero regardless of what you did for any one faction. If you are continuously doing factions quests then it wouldn't be a big deal or even if you do one within that time period as you would still have that cushion of 5 points to buffer against that. It really only becomes an issue if you are right on the edge of a faction promotion and get demoted so you can't use the services that you gained access to.

I don't recall it ever being an issue with classic but been a good couple of years so might not of noticed it. If it is a bug I would rate it as a low priority one as with knowledge it is easily over come. So maybe a note of difference between DFU and classic or just a disclaimer that the information applies to DFU, while the DFU wiki comes online.

I applaud mikeprichard for trying to correct the UESP page as that is a common source of information, if it isn't matching what is happening in DFU, which at this point I think is how the majority will play Daggerfall, then we are going backward regarding valid and true information.

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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:29 pm

Thanks for your patience, all. Could someone who has access to classic please test this and post their findings (long story short, I can't play classic right now)? I.e. is it in fact the case in classic that successful completion of a faction quest at least once every 112 days prevents the gradual 1-point reputation decay in that faction upon each 112-day tick? As described earlier in this topic, there are save files and editors available through UESP to easily start with high faction rep and also to view the rep values in your saves.

And sorry to Hazelnut if looking at some Todd guy gets him ornery... though I have no idea what he's talking about. ;)

Firebrand
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by Firebrand » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 pm

Ommamar wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:12 pm
mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:28 pm
Might be a DFU bug, then. But I'm still not quite clear on what you mean by "after" 112 days - what exactly is the starting point for the "after", if not your most recent completed faction quest? Do you mean that every 112 days that pass, your reputation with a faction always drops 1 point, even though you're successfully completing quests for that same faction throughout that entire period? If that is the case, it is a DFU bug. Sorry if I'm being dense!
That is my understanding that every 112 days your faction is adjusted towards zero regardless of what you did for any one faction. If you are continuously doing factions quests then it wouldn't be a big deal or even if you do one within that time period as you would still have that cushion of 5 points to buffer against that. It really only becomes an issue if you are right on the edge of a faction promotion and get demoted so you can't use the services that you gained access to.
Ommamar correctly described what I was trying to explain :)

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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:36 pm

Got it, Firebrand! So here's the classic testing that would help prove whether or not there's a DFU bug that might need squashin' (i.e. a difference with classic in terms of reputation decay):

1) Download a classic save file with a character that has high joinable faction rep/rank from here (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Files#Saved_Games). "Shadow" is probably the best.
2) Download and use a save editor (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Fil ... me_Editors) to take note of the save file's current positive reputation value in a joinable faction of your choice. "DFHack v3" is probably the best.
3) Load the save file, successfully complete a quest for the faction you chose in step 2, then note the in-game date.
4) View the save file again in the save editor and note the new character reputation value in the faction.
5) Wait around 30-60 days, successfully complete a second quest for the faction, and note the in-game date.
6) View the save file again in the save editor and note the new character reputation value in the faction.
7) Wait until 112 days from the initial date recorded in step 3 have elapsed, then once more view the save file in the save editor and note the character reputation value in the selected joinable faction.
8) If the rep value from step 7 is the same as the rep value in step 6, DFU's current behavior doesn't match classic (i.e. DFU is not preventing 1-point reputation value decay even when a faction quest is successfully completed at least once every 112 days, whereas classic is preventing this decay in such case).

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mikeprichard
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:42 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:36 pm
Got it, Firebrand! So here's the classic testing that would help prove whether or not there's a DFU bug that might need squashin' (i.e. a difference with classic in terms of reputation decay):

1) Download a classic save file with a character that has high joinable faction rep/rank from here (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Files#Saved_Games). "Shadow" is probably the best.
2) Download and use a save editor (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Fil ... me_Editors) to take note of the save file's current positive reputation value in a joinable faction of your choice. "DFHack v3" is probably the best.
3) Load the save file, successfully complete a quest for the faction you chose in step 2, then note the in-game date.
4) View the save file again in the save editor and note the new character reputation value in the faction.
5) Wait around 30-60 days, successfully complete a second quest for the faction, and note the in-game date.
6) View the save file again in the save editor and note the new character reputation value in the faction.
7) Wait until 112 days from the initial date recorded in step 3 have elapsed, then once more view the save file in the save editor and note the character reputation value in the selected joinable faction.
8) If the rep value from step 7 is the same as the rep value in step 6, DFU's current behavior doesn't match classic (i.e. DFU is not preventing 1-point reputation value decay even when a faction quest is successfully completed at least once every 112 days, whereas classic is preventing this decay in such case).
Since nobody took the bait (and I'm now reminded why, given how painful it is for me to play classic after getting used to DFU's player mouse movement controls and "click to attack" option), I did the above testing on my own. Although I think it makes very little sense, it turns out classic indeed has 1-point faction reputation decay every 112 days even when a faction quest is successfully completed at least once within that period, which DFU apparently replicates. I've attached here five saves at every stage of my testing involving the Fighter Questers/Fighters Guild factions in case anyone feels like reviewing this themselves, and have updated the UESP page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Rep ... ation_Loss) accordingly. Thanks as usual for the discussion.
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BansheeXYZ
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by BansheeXYZ » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:26 am

I must not have read the end of this thread, but I didn't know demotion was added and haven't been playing enough to see it.

Without testing, does anyone know if it's possible for the following situation to happen? Say you're 5 points away from promotion and 10 days away from a rep decay. You complete a quest in 9 days for 5 points, get promoted. Next day, talk to the guy and he demotes you for seemingly no reason (your rep decayed by 1). Player is confused and frustrated because he did nothing wrong.

If that's possible, it sounds like demotion and rep decay aren't good at coexisting. I'd personally pick demotion over decay since failing quests is your own fault and quite visible.

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pango
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Re: "Maintain Reputation" logic

Post by pango » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 am

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:26 am
he demotes you for seemingly no reason (your rep decayed by 1).
Following your scenario, reputation would decay by 1, so would not have increased enough to reach next rank requirements and the player could miss a rank up; That's not the same thing as a demotion: the player would stay at the same rank.

However I've seen nothing testing whether you did something for the guild during the 112 previous days, and it seems confirmed by Firebrand experience, so your scenario can probably happen.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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