[0.10.23] [Question] Turning into vampire in DFU vs Classic

[Ralzar]

What would the obvious implementation of this be really? Vanilla Daggerfalls way of doing it seem like a rough draft for "Everyone believes you're dead and strikes you from their members lists." Which I think is a good idea. But how should they act when you show up alive? And are you really "dead"? I mean, you can still show up at the guild, still looking like yourself, just a bit paler and more pointy-teethed?
But on the other hand, the wiping of the slate when you die is kinda fun. It makes vampirism into more than just a set of buffs and debuffs.

So, maybe wipe the slate clean for reps and guild memberships when you go vampire? But then restore some of the previous rep if you return to life? But not the memberships? So if you had 80 rep in Mages Guild before you turned vampire, you'd get 4+0 rep in Mages Guild when you turn human again but you have to join over again (damn bureaucracy) and get given the rank for whatever rep you have now.

Edit: or give it a pretty simple mechanic that matches vanilla but leave it open for modding

[Lanjane]

From the player perspective I would be very disappointed if some of the game events forbid me from ever having access to the specific content in this playtrough. I mean, the DB/Thieves Guild invitation can happen only once, and if you are kicked, you'll lose possibility to join forever which is too harsh. Maybe a temporary loss of reputation only? So your former guild fellows will require some time to recognize you again and get used to your new... nature. As you start making quests for them again, the reputation may be slowly restored to previous values. But no kicking out from membership please.

[Ferital]

I just spent a few hours reverse engineering classic regarding vampire infection and cure, also testing it in game.

In classic, when becoming a vampire, a character is considered dead so all his guild memberships are saved and "erased" (in fact, all classic does is setting the type of the Guild record to "Old Guild", this classic record type is mentioned on line 411 in SaveTree.cs). Therefore, once cured (so, resurrected), a character gets all his previous guild affiliations back with all former ranks he had while alive. However, any membership acquired as a vampire is erased as well.

This also means that if a character is a Master of the Fighters Guild before becoming a vampire, then reenter the order as a vampire, so with the rank of Apprentice, his rank will be reset to Master one he gets cured.

As a consequence of the way classic handles this (by keeping a list of Guilds and Old Guilds), if the above character becomes a vampire again after getting cured a first time, he will recover all guild affiliations he had on his first "life" as a vampire (I didn't tested this but I'm pretty confident it works in this way).

In fact, guild affiliations change is handled by the same function when infected/cured:

Code: Select all

void add_remove_guild_membership(record_header* guild_header)
{
  if (guild_header->type == GUILD)
  {
    guild_header->type = OLD_GUILD;
  }
  else if (guild_header->type == OLD_GUILD)
  {
    guild_header->type = GUILD;
  }
}

Also, regarding Underworld guilds, if a character is a member of either the Thieves Guild, the Dark Brotherhood or both, before becoming a vampire, he will recover these memberships after getting cured. So the UESP are entirely wrong regarding this (in the Curing Vampirism first paragraph).

[Ralzar]

Oh wow, that actually makes a lot of sense and is easy to keep track of. Great work man!

So you’re basically two differen characters you switch between, mortal-you and vampire-you.

[Ferital]

So you’re basically two differen characters you switch between, mortal-you and vampire-you.

Yes, exactly

[Hazelnut]

Brilliant, that's explicit and unambiguous! Thanks ferital.

Will implement soon (ish)

I assume lycanthropes work the same..?

[Ralzar]

I doubt it. While vampirism is a fulltime thing, lycanthtopy is split into normal-you and hairy-you. And hairy-you can’t talk to anyone, so guild assiciations should be meaningless.

Lycanthropy is mostly functional. It could just do with a slight thightening of the NPC interaction. So you can’t, for example, rent rooms or buy food while in beastmode.

(Edit: and if you poke at the lycanthropy code: some easy way for mods to identify if player is a wolf or boar )

[XJDHDR]

But how should they act when you show up alive? And are you really "dead"? I mean, you can still show up at the guild, still looking like yourself, just a bit paler and more pointy-teethed?

There is a book in-game that explains this: Vampires of the Iliac Bay: Chapter 1

Essentially, the knight that became a vampire changed so much that people he had met said that he looked nothing like the dead knight.

As for showing up alive, I think they would just call that a rumour that turned out to be wrong.

I assume lycanthropes work the same..?

No, they don't. My character retained all his guild memberships and ranks after becoming a werewolf. Same thing in Classic as well.

Also, regarding Underworld guilds, if a character is a member of either the Thieves Guild, the Dark Brotherhood or both, before becoming a vampire, he will recover these memberships after getting cured. So the UESP are entirely wrong regarding this (in the Curing Vampirism first paragraph).

Good job. Just one question though: If a membership in one of these guilds is offered to one of your identities, can membership also be offered to your alter ego? Is the UESP at least correct on this point or is it wrong there as well?

[Ferital]

I assume lycanthropes work the same..?

No, lycanthropy is handled differently, the only similarities with vampirism being the skill bonuses.

Also, regarding Underworld guilds, if a character is a member of either the Thieves Guild, the Dark Brotherhood or both, before becoming a vampire, he will recover these memberships after getting cured. So the UESP are entirely wrong regarding this (in the Curing Vampirism first paragraph).

Good job. Just one question though: If a membership in one of these guilds is offered to one of your identities, can membership also be offered to your alter ego? Is the UESP at least correct on this point or is it wrong there as well?

Good point! I still have to confirm it through code analysis, but I think the UESP are correct there: in classic, you should not be able to enter one of these guild as a vampire if you were a member before. The same shoud apply if you enter the guilds as a vampire and get cured from vampirism. From my point of view, this is a bug that should be fixed in DFU.

[Hazelnut]

And that's why it's always worth checking assumptions.

Fixing it so the DB & TG invitations reset would be quite tricky as this is done outside of all the guild membership tracking so it would need re-implementing. I'll just make it work as classic and then see what could be done.