Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

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mikeprichard
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Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:30 pm

Jay_H and Azteca are currently leading the charge in planning a DFU wiki, likely to be hosted on UESP, which describes issues specific to DFU, including installation/troubleshooting, modding/mods, and bugfixes/features/tweaked game mechanics that are included in DFU but not in classic Daggerfall - see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=260 for the discussion.

As I've been gradually working in parallel to the above effort to correct many inaccuracies in the existing UESP pages for classic Daggerfall, I thought it would make sense to open this second topic devoted to needed changes on that side. To be clear, this current topic will be for changes to the UESP involving classic Daggerfall content, which will generally also apply to DFU. Meanwhile, Jay_H's topic above will be focused exclusively on DFU-only content, with that DFU wiki relying on and not duplicating the classic UESP data for any content shared identically between classic and DFU.

I'll be updating this post periodically to note the current status of UESP page changes for classic Daggerfall. Anyone with an attention to detail and interest in helping out in any capacity (in-game testing, interpreting game code, reporting wiki errors, etc.) is very welcome!

11 JUNE 2020 UPDATE: Due to some major changes in real life, I'll no longer have the time to devote to this project for the foreseeable future. However, I think the only major area needing attention is the issue of equipment durability. The most recent research as of June 2020 is summarized in the links further below in this post (see "11 June 2020 - Edits Needed (Confirmation Per Game Code Required)"), so anyone is welcome to continue the work on the basis of confirmed testing of classic Daggerfall game data. Thanks to all for your contributions!

11 June 2020 - Edited Pages
(for all pages: errors corrected, bugs noted, mechanics expanded upon, formatting improved, etc.)
-"Character Creation" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Character_Creation
-"Classes" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
-"ClassMaker" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:ClassMaker
-"Races" page and race subpages x8: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
-"Attributes" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Attributes
-"Leveling and Skills" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Leveling_and_Skills
-"Combat" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Combat
-"Skills" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Skills
-"Archery" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Archery
-"Axe" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Axe
-"Blunt Weapon" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Blunt_Weapon
-"Critical Strike" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Critical_Strike
-"Dodging" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Dodging
-"Long Blade" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Long_Blade
-"Short Blade" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Short_Blade
-"Stealth" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Stealth
-"Armor" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Armor
-"Artifacts" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Artifacts
-"Items" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Items
-"Magical Items" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magical_Items
-"Weapons" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Weapons
-"Magic and Spells" page and magic school/spell subpages x12: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magic_and_Spells
-"Enchanting Items" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchanting_Items
-"Enchantment Power" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchantment_Power
-"Spell Maker" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Spell_Maker
-"Reputation" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Reputation
-"Factions" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Factions
-"Key Controls" page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Key_Controls

11 June 2020 - Edits Needed (Confirmation Per Game Code Required)
-"Armor"/"Weapons"/"Enchanting Items"/"Magical Items" pages: game code data needed to confirm equipment durability mechanics, including:
1) exactly how item total health values are calculated
2) exactly how item total health values decay
3) exactly how item total health values are restored by "Repairs Objects" enchantment
See the following discussions/resources:
i) Item health (summary/additional links): viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3489&p=42134#p42134
ii) Item damage conditions and Repairs Objects enchantment: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2233&p=42143#p42143
Last edited by mikeprichard on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:01 pm, edited 51 times in total.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:54 pm

ARMOR TESTING

EDIT: Armor mechanics resolved: see viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514&start=10#p29618

[quote=mikeprichard post_id=28907 time=1565389787 user_id=757]
[quote=Feiros post_id=28906 time=1565389479 user_id=1655]
[quote=Ommamar post_id=28899 time=1565386382 user_id=1596]
Your armor absorbs damage while dodge skill effects your chance to not get hit in combat.
[/quote]

Are we sure on that? Because UESP info on armor states that Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you.. :?
[/quote]

I've recently devoted time to updating many of the Daggerfall UESP pages, and of the pages I've revised so far, these statements at the top of the Armor page did bother me as vague and possibly incorrect. I didn't have the time/energy to raise these questions here when I noticed these statements earlier, but I guess now's as good a time as any:

"Armor provides protection from incoming melee attacks. Each area of your body can only be protected by one armor piece at a time, but your Armor Rating consists of the sum of their defensive values. ... Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you. A high Agility gives you an ability to avoid strikes. That, coupled with an abundance of armor (so you might not feel someone striking you), are ways to increase your Armor Rating."

The above statements are vague and contradictory, and unnecessarily conflate armor with Agility effects. Moreover, I'd already made many edits to this UESP page and others trying to edit the wonky language re: "Armor Rating" to "Armor Modifiers" when talking about the "+X" bonuses conferred by different armor materials. However, I'm still at a loss as to how to amend the problematic statements above, particularly as I can't find anywhere in game that shows your "total" armor rating - only the "modifiers" are shown. Could one of the always patient reverse-engineers please weigh in on what exactly this page needs to say here? A couple specific questions:

1) Do the armor modifiers (e.g. +21 for daedric material) shown in game add to some hidden "base" armor rating values applicable to each armor piece, and if so, what are those "base" values?

2) Does the average across all equipment pieces of each [armor "base" value (if such exists) + armor modifier value] = the amount of incoming physical damage that's reduced, or is a more complicated formula involved?

My baseless suspicion is that the armor modifiers in fact show the total defensive properties of each armor piece, then these values are averaged together to come up with the amount that will be flatly subtracted from incoming physical damage. E.g. if you're wearing all seven pieces of non-shield armor, with four leather (+3 each) and three chain (+6 each), your total damage reduction would be [(4x3) + (3x6)]/7 = 4.3 rounded. Any worn shields would then somehow need to be factored into the equation. But this paragraph is complete guesswork as an example of the detail I'm looking for - facts based on the game code would be appreciated!
[/quote]

The quoted text above continues the discussion from viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2478. Although I've learned not to trust any information in the Daggerfall manual/Daggerfall Chronicles/old UESP classic wiki data, my limited initial in-game testing indicates armor may in fact affect your character's chance to be hit rather than add damage reduction. Wearing full Daedric armor with +21 modifiers, I started a tussle with some guards in town, and was only hit about once every 5-10 attacks. However, when completely nekkid (no armor at all), I was hit almost every time. Meanwhile, the damage I received on each hit seemed to be within the same range regardless of whether I was wearing full or no armor (roughly 6-12 hit points per strike).

As I've said elsewhere, I'd only be comfortable with editing the existing UESP page data after some smart coding person can confirm what exactly is going on in the game code, including any relevant formulas for calculating hit chance and/or damage reduction as well as how armor modifiers for each piece of worn equipment work together, as in-game testing for this kind of thing is inherently inaccurate and will in any case not give the complete picture. But my above initial testing indicates armor affecting hit chance rather than damage received may actually be the way things work.
Last edited by mikeprichard on Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Jay_H
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Jay_H » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:47 pm

Out of necessity I'll move this to Community. Interkarma set a rule previously:

Code: Select all

Questions about playing or modding classic Daggerfall should be posted to Community.
While sort of merging the lines between DFU and classic, I think this topic's emphasis qualifies.
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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:50 pm

Sure thing, Jay. By the way, are you able to explain the code reference I gave for the possible 50% player movement speed requirement (i.e. must be walking or slower) in order for Stealth to activate, which we were kicking around in the DFU wiki topic linked above? If not, no worries - you're obviously keeping busy.

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Jay_H
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Jay_H » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:08 pm

No, I was only working on hearsay. My difficulty is that I remember comments from a long time ago... and then mix them with my own memories :lol: Unless I can provide a good source I'd put a tenuous trust on anything I say.
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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:15 pm

Well, I'd trust you more than I would myself with this stuff! I did actually find something in the code that might be relevant (?) - copied over from the other topic:

Is this (https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... es.cs#L573) the source of the 50% movement speed requirement you mentioned in order for Stealth to work at all? I have no idea how to correctly read this code, but what I'm trying to clearly determine is whether the Stealth skill is completely "deactivated" when running - i.e. whether it's only active when walking (which is what I think "playerMotor.IsMovingLessThanHalfSpeed" is referring to, given Jay's earlier post?), sneaking and/or crouching (both of which do slow the player). If this is the case, I'll need to tweak the UESP page again for classic/DFU.

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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Jay_H » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:19 pm

No, it was a forum post. I used that for validation but I'm only now starting to look in the code, and this was something Interkarma said awhile ago. The fun part is to search the forum for every post with the word "stealth" in it so I can verify what it was :D I'll see if I can do that soon.
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:20 pm

Yeah, I tried that, but didn't have much luck, though I think the code I linked may eventually help shed some light. Thanks again for all your help with this stuff!

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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Jay_H » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:24 pm

Interkarma said:
When sneaking, don't forget to use the sneak key as well, it's different the crouch key in Daggerfall. You probably knew this already, but worth mentioning just in case.
That's literally the only thing I can find so I would well doubt what I said. One step forward, one step backward with me! :lol: Thanks for your great attitude mike.
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:28 pm

OK, much obliged! But in case a coding guru wanders in here, I'll leave my link to the code I found (https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... es.cs#L573) for them to interpret in case it is actually the case that running invalidates the passive Stealth check. Not sure how that "playerMotor.IsMovingLessThanHalfSpeed" bit works in the code or translates exactly to running vs. walking vs. sneaking vs. crouching... but learning new stuff about a 23-year-old game every day.

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