Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

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Dubiousintent
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Dubiousintent » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:45 pm

Well, if you're bored ...
Not sure if this is a change on the DFU side or bad info on the UESP wiki https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Lev ... ls_to_Make.

DFU Spell Maker in Mages Guild: Does not permit creation of Classic "minimal cost" training spells, because not all spells permit applying "magnitude" (i.e. "Free Action") to bring the cost down. Cost calc seems off as well:

EX: DAT-Trainer (Area: Damage Fatigue(Destruction), Water Breathing(Alteration) & Walking(Thaumaturgy)): individual spells cost 5@, combined total = 30.

EX: Damage Health 1-1, 1-1 per 2 Levels, Cost=5, Casting Cost= 10.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:48 pm

Dubiousintent wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:45 pm
Well, if you're bored ...
Not sure if this is a change on the DFU side or bad info on the UESP wiki https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Lev ... ls_to_Make.

DFU Spell Maker in Mages Guild: Does not permit creation of Classic "minimal cost" training spells, because not all spells permit applying "magnitude" (i.e. "Free Action") to bring the cost down. Cost calc seems off as well:

EX: DAT-Trainer (Area: Damage Fatigue(Destruction), Water Breathing(Alteration) & Walking(Thaumaturgy)): individual spells cost 5@, combined total = 30.

EX: Damage Health 1-1, 1-1 per 2 Levels, Cost=5, Casting Cost= 10.
Thanks for the report - I'm going to leave this one to Jay_H to consider, as it appears to be a change DFU makes compared to classic (Jay has taken the lead on the DFU-specific wiki content at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tes2Mod:Daggerfall_Unity).

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:24 pm

Following up on Dubiousintent's post, there might be a misunderstanding here - in both classic and DFU, you can in fact create that sample "cheap" spell with Damage as the first effect, Light as the second, and Free Action as the third; in both games, neither Light nor Free Action have a magnitude, but that's irrelevant, as the magnitude is set by the first (Damage) effect. The relevant UESP page description from https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Lev ... ell_Points:

Spells and items that Absorb Magic can be used to gain free spell casts.

Access the Mages Guild Spell Maker (must be a member) and create a spell with the Soul Trap or Damage effect as 'area around target' with '1-1 + 1-1 per 2/level' magnitude.
Add two more effects from two other schools of magic.
Cast the spell near a wall or at your feet in order to absorb and regain the spell points used to cast the spell
The resulting spell might look something like these:

Example 1
Damage 1-1 + 1-1 per 2 levels (area around target)
Light 1-1 + 1-1 per 2 levels
Free Action 1-1 + 1-1 per 2 levels


However, I can confirm from testing that as of DFU alpha 0.10.15, the resulting casting cost of this spell in DFU (20 spell points) doesn't match its casting cost in classic (5 spell points). This discussion therefore may need to be moved to Help & Support, as I'm not sure whether the spell cost changes are a DFU bug/oversight which the DFU devs would need to address, or an intentional gameplay change made by DFU compared to classic which Jay_H would capture in his DFU wiki. I leave this up to Dubiousintent/the devs.

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Jay_H
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Jay_H » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:32 pm

I've never known a reason to alter spell costs, and we worked out the original formula in the mechanics topic, so I assume it's an error. I made a new topic for it.
Come join Lysandus' Tomb, a Daggerfall Unity fan Discord.
See the Daggerfall Unity Wiki on the UESP.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:00 pm

Dubiousintent - there don't seem to be any problems with the wiki content, and I don't think there are any issues with DFU gameplay either, but please see my posts just above and the new support topic at viewtopic.php?f=5&p=37107#p37107 in case you have anything further on this to report.

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Dubiousintent
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Dubiousintent » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 am

See my reply in the viewtopic.php?f=5&p=37107#p37107. Even if there is not a problem with the calculation, I feel the wiki needs additional information to clarify why new mages are seeing a difference in the "casting cost" in the builder and that shown when purchasing that constructed spell (double in both instances I reported). Also how stacking effects in a spell affects casting cost as well, as it does not seem to be linear either.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:49 am

Dubiousintent wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 am
See my reply in the viewtopic.php?f=5&p=37107#p37107. Even if there is not a problem with the calculation, I feel the wiki needs additional information to clarify why new mages are seeing a difference in the "casting cost" in the builder and that shown when purchasing that constructed spell (double in both instances I reported). Also how stacking effects in a spell affects casting cost as well, as it does not seem to be linear either.
The main magic page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magic_and_Spells) does describe the basic mechanic of higher spell skill (Alteration, Destruction, etc.) reducing casting costs for related spells, also noting that the minimum casting cost for any spell is 5 spell points. As to the values in the "Cost" box within the Spell Maker UI for a particular effect not matching the "Casting Cost" in the main spell UI during spell creation, that occurs in both DFU and classic, while the difference is not always double, depending on your skill level, so I'm not sure what the detailed calculations are under the hood.
Last edited by mikeprichard on Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:20 pm

UPDATE: I've removed the "Cost" column from the "Cheapest spell for each school of magic" table at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Lev ... eap_Spells and tweaked the related introductory language to resolve this issue and avoid confusion, as the figures were in any case inaccurate in most cases.

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Dubiousintent
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by Dubiousintent » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:59 pm

That is probably for the best at the moment. I would hope eventually we could provide a better understanding of the calculation, but at least this way we avoid misleading people.

<Lift corner of rug and kick ... kick> Nothing to see here.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:20 pm

Yep, that's usually my approach - if we don't know something for sure, we just don't say it! Simple.

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