Page 1 of 3

Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:30 pm
by mikeprichard
Jay_H and Azteca are currently leading the charge in planning a DFU wiki, likely to be hosted on UESP, which describes issues specific to DFU, including installation/troubleshooting, modding/mods, and bugfixes/features/tweaked game mechanics that are included in DFU but not in classic Daggerfall - see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=260 for the discussion.

As I've been gradually working in parallel to the above effort to correct many inaccuracies in the existing UESP pages for classic Daggerfall, I thought it would make sense to open this second topic devoted to needed changes on that side. To be clear, this current topic will be for changes to the UESP involving classic Daggerfall content, which will generally also apply to DFU (though DFU itself won't be advertised/mentioned on those pages). Meanwhile, Jay_H's topic above will be focused exclusively on DFU-only content, with that DFU wiki relying on and not duplicating the classic UESP data for any content shared identically between classic and DFU.

I'll be updating this post periodically to note the current status of UESP page changes for classic Daggerfall. Anyone with an attention to detail and interest in helping out in any capacity (in-game testing, interpreting game code, reporting wiki errors, etc.) is very welcome!

16 September 2019 - Edited Pages
(for all pages: errors corrected, bugs noted, mechanics expanded upon, formatting improved, etc.)
-"Races" pages x8:
-"Attributes" page:
-"Combat" page:
-"Critical Strike" page:
-"Dodging" page:
-"Stealth" page:
-"Reputation" page:
-"Armor" page:
-"Artifacts" page:
-"Enchanting Items" page:
-"Enchantment Power" page:
-"Items" page:
-"Magical Items" page:
-"Weapons" page:

20 August 2019 - Edits Needed (Confirmation Per Game Code Required)
-"Armor"/"Weapons"/"Enchanting Items"/"Magical Items" pages: game code data needed to confirm equipment durability mechanics, including:
1) exactly how weapon/armor piece/enchanted item total "durability" values are calculated
2) exactly how weapon/armor piece/enchanted item total "durability" values decay
3) exactly how weapon/armor piece/enchanted item total "durability" values are restored by "repair" enchantment
(see also forum topic at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2584&p=31543#p31543)
-"Armor" page: game code data needed to confirm whether shields only add the displayed 1, 2, 3, or 4 armor rating to the affected body areas in the actual calculations for the player to be hit, or, similar to other armor pieces due to the fact that the displayed ratings are only 1/5 of the values actually used in these calculations, they in fact add 5, 10, 15, or 20 (see Allofich/R.D.'s comments at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1662&start=20#p19115)
-"Stealth" page: game code data needed to confirm Stealth skill mechanics, specifically, whether Stealth is active while running, or only while walking or moving more slowly than walking by sneaking and/or crouching
(see further below in the current topic, and forum user l3lessed's possible attempts to research relevant game code at viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2508&start=20#p29374)

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:54 pm
by mikeprichard

EDIT: Armor mechanics resolved: see viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514&start=10#p29618

[quote=mikeprichard post_id=28907 time=1565389787 user_id=757]
[quote=Feiros post_id=28906 time=1565389479 user_id=1655]
[quote=Ommamar post_id=28899 time=1565386382 user_id=1596]
Your armor absorbs damage while dodge skill effects your chance to not get hit in combat.

Are we sure on that? Because UESP info on armor states that Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you.. :?

I've recently devoted time to updating many of the Daggerfall UESP pages, and of the pages I've revised so far, these statements at the top of the Armor page did bother me as vague and possibly incorrect. I didn't have the time/energy to raise these questions here when I noticed these statements earlier, but I guess now's as good a time as any:

"Armor provides protection from incoming melee attacks. Each area of your body can only be protected by one armor piece at a time, but your Armor Rating consists of the sum of their defensive values. ... Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you. A high Agility gives you an ability to avoid strikes. That, coupled with an abundance of armor (so you might not feel someone striking you), are ways to increase your Armor Rating."

The above statements are vague and contradictory, and unnecessarily conflate armor with Agility effects. Moreover, I'd already made many edits to this UESP page and others trying to edit the wonky language re: "Armor Rating" to "Armor Modifiers" when talking about the "+X" bonuses conferred by different armor materials. However, I'm still at a loss as to how to amend the problematic statements above, particularly as I can't find anywhere in game that shows your "total" armor rating - only the "modifiers" are shown. Could one of the always patient reverse-engineers please weigh in on what exactly this page needs to say here? A couple specific questions:

1) Do the armor modifiers (e.g. +21 for daedric material) shown in game add to some hidden "base" armor rating values applicable to each armor piece, and if so, what are those "base" values?

2) Does the average across all equipment pieces of each [armor "base" value (if such exists) + armor modifier value] = the amount of incoming physical damage that's reduced, or is a more complicated formula involved?

My baseless suspicion is that the armor modifiers in fact show the total defensive properties of each armor piece, then these values are averaged together to come up with the amount that will be flatly subtracted from incoming physical damage. E.g. if you're wearing all seven pieces of non-shield armor, with four leather (+3 each) and three chain (+6 each), your total damage reduction would be [(4x3) + (3x6)]/7 = 4.3 rounded. Any worn shields would then somehow need to be factored into the equation. But this paragraph is complete guesswork as an example of the detail I'm looking for - facts based on the game code would be appreciated!

The quoted text above continues the discussion from viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2478. Although I've learned not to trust any information in the Daggerfall manual/Daggerfall Chronicles/old UESP classic wiki data, my limited initial in-game testing indicates armor may in fact affect your character's chance to be hit rather than add damage reduction. Wearing full Daedric armor with +21 modifiers, I started a tussle with some guards in town, and was only hit about once every 5-10 attacks. However, when completely nekkid (no armor at all), I was hit almost every time. Meanwhile, the damage I received on each hit seemed to be within the same range regardless of whether I was wearing full or no armor (roughly 6-12 hit points per strike).

As I've said elsewhere, I'd only be comfortable with editing the existing UESP page data after some smart coding person can confirm what exactly is going on in the game code, including any relevant formulas for calculating hit chance and/or damage reduction as well as how armor modifiers for each piece of worn equipment work together, as in-game testing for this kind of thing is inherently inaccurate and will in any case not give the complete picture. But my above initial testing indicates armor affecting hit chance rather than damage received may actually be the way things work.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:47 pm
by Jay_H
Out of necessity I'll move this to Community. Interkarma set a rule previously:

Code: Select all

Questions about playing or modding classic Daggerfall should be posted to Community.
While sort of merging the lines between DFU and classic, I think this topic's emphasis qualifies.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:50 pm
by mikeprichard
Sure thing, Jay. By the way, are you able to explain the code reference I gave for the possible 50% player movement speed requirement (i.e. must be walking or slower) in order for Stealth to activate, which we were kicking around in the DFU wiki topic linked above? If not, no worries - you're obviously keeping busy.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:08 pm
by Jay_H
No, I was only working on hearsay. My difficulty is that I remember comments from a long time ago... and then mix them with my own memories :lol: Unless I can provide a good source I'd put a tenuous trust on anything I say.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:15 pm
by mikeprichard
Well, I'd trust you more than I would myself with this stuff! I did actually find something in the code that might be relevant (?) - copied over from the other topic:

Is this ( ... es.cs#L573) the source of the 50% movement speed requirement you mentioned in order for Stealth to work at all? I have no idea how to correctly read this code, but what I'm trying to clearly determine is whether the Stealth skill is completely "deactivated" when running - i.e. whether it's only active when walking (which is what I think "playerMotor.IsMovingLessThanHalfSpeed" is referring to, given Jay's earlier post?), sneaking and/or crouching (both of which do slow the player). If this is the case, I'll need to tweak the UESP page again for classic/DFU.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:19 pm
by Jay_H
No, it was a forum post. I used that for validation but I'm only now starting to look in the code, and this was something Interkarma said awhile ago. The fun part is to search the forum for every post with the word "stealth" in it so I can verify what it was :D I'll see if I can do that soon.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:20 pm
by mikeprichard
Yeah, I tried that, but didn't have much luck, though I think the code I linked may eventually help shed some light. Thanks again for all your help with this stuff!

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:24 pm
by Jay_H
Interkarma said:
When sneaking, don't forget to use the sneak key as well, it's different the crouch key in Daggerfall. You probably knew this already, but worth mentioning just in case.
That's literally the only thing I can find so I would well doubt what I said. One step forward, one step backward with me! :lol: Thanks for your great attitude mike.

Re: Daggerfall Classic Wiki (UESP)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:28 pm
by mikeprichard
OK, much obliged! But in case a coding guru wanders in here, I'll leave my link to the code I found ( ... es.cs#L573) for them to interpret in case it is actually the case that running invalidates the passive Stealth check. Not sure how that "playerMotor.IsMovingLessThanHalfSpeed" bit works in the code or translates exactly to running vs. walking vs. sneaking vs. crouching... but learning new stuff about a 23-year-old game every day.