Conjuration/Necromancy

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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Ziune Wolf
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Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Ziune Wolf » Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 pm

I've seen a few people mention this here and there but I figured I'd make an individual topic about it. I apologize if this has been discussed already under my radar.

One of the magic skills what was available in later TES games, but not in Daggerfall, was conjuration. I don't know how easy it would be to integrate a new skill (or skills) as a mod (or if it is even possible), but this would could add some extra depth for magic users. This would especially be true if a Necromancer's guild/faction was ever implemented alongside it. Here are some mechanics I envision that would make sense for the system(s):

Conjuration:
Governing Attribute: Intelligence

Conjuration would allow you to summon a subset (or all) of the creatures in the game (any non-humans/humanoid characters). There could be multiple ways that they could be summoned: on self, or on target. On self would simply summon the creature nearby (would need to make sure it doesn't spawn in the void), and on target would simply launch the spell like a projectile, and upon impact with a wall or target, the impact location would be the spot at which the creature is summoned. The spells could have a spell point cost upon summon (or attempted summon), and perhaps, upon a successful summon, a drain on spellpoints constantly until the creature is dismissed somehow by the summoner, the creature dies, or the player runs out of spell points. Initial spell point cost would be based upon the level of the creature that is being summoned. The rate of spell point drain would also depend on the conjuration skill, and a higher skill would result in slower decrease. Of course, the gradual loss of spell points aspect could be ignored or could be left as a configurable option.

Other mechanics that could be integrated into this system would be a chance for the summon to be hostile to the character. For example, a low-level spellcaster will likely find it difficult to summon daedra, and doing so would be dangerous (i.e. the spellcaster would find it difficult to manipulate, tame, and control the mind of the creature summoned). The chance that the summon is hostile would depend, again, on the conjuration skill as well as the creature's level. A (simple) formula for the chance of a summoned creature being hostile could be:

if [creature's level] - [Conjuration Skill/5] < 0:
Chance = 0%

else:
Chance = ( [creature's level] - [Conjuration Skill/5] )*5 [chance is in %]

Of course, this formula is simple. Perhaps an exponential function which decays to 0 as the player skill reaches high levels would be more appropriate (which would give a consistent sense of risk associated with conjuration, no matter the player's skill).

Other mechanics that could be used in this system would be the language skills. I would imagine that a player with a high daedric skill would find it easier to summon a daedric creature than another player with a low daedric skill, assuming their conjuration skills were identical. This influence could be manifested as a lower spell point cost that is based on the associated language skill (if any). This would likely be a secondary effect on the spell's cost; that is, one point in conjuration would be more useful that one point in a language skill for reducing the spell cost. Nonetheless, this would be another way to make the language skills more useful.

Lastly, a necromancer's guild could be implemented into the game alongside this. I imagine that this guild would be difficult to gain entry to, and would be secretive, much like the dark brotherhood and thieves' guild. Perhaps when the player reaches a certain conjuration level (like 50, for example), the guild may offer an invitation. I also imagine that this guild would have close associations with the dark brotherhood and perhaps (more negative) relationships with the mages guild.

Other things to think about would be perhaps the ability to resurrect dead corpses. This could also be governed by conjuration, but could be separated into a separate 'necromancy' skill, although I'm not sure that's entirely necessary. Perhaps resurrected corpses have a chance of being animated as zombies instead of reverting back to their original form (in the case of humanoids).

This is me just shooting some ideas around. Let me know what you guys think, and share some of your ideas as well to perhaps expand from or revise mine. :)

Usernamicus
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Usernamicus » Thu May 24, 2018 6:43 am

The "Create Item" spell would also be in Conjuration as iirc it's the only spell that isn't currently governed by a skill.

I don't think reanimation would need to be a separate skill tbh, just have Reanimate (Undead/Humanoid/Animal/Daedra/Creature) be a Conjuration spell taught only by Necromancers/Witches/Vampires.

There's also an unused spell from Skyrim called "Spectral Arrow" that might be an interesting. Instead of Creating an arrow of a randomized material type via Create Item > Arrow to permanently stay in your inventory, you could fire an arrow of a randomized material type from the realms of Oblivion directly from your your hand, perhaps even one with a randomized enchantment if we wanna get really fancy.

And finally, it'd be cool to see a Conjuration spell that lets you banish items into a pocket dimension and respawn them into your inventory, essentially acting as a magical wagon for magelords who can't be bothered with using wagons.

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Jay_H
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Jay_H » Thu May 24, 2018 9:56 pm

Create Item is governed by Mysticism in Daggerfall :)
Come join Lysandus' Tomb, a Daggerfall Unity fan Discord.
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Usernamicus
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Usernamicus » Fri May 25, 2018 10:29 am

Oh, really? Whoops. The rest still stands though. :D

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Ziune Wolf
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Ziune Wolf » Fri May 25, 2018 5:40 pm

You may be able to make the argument that create item summons an item permanently while conjuration summons it temporarily. The trade-off might be that, yes, while you get a permanent item with the "create item" spell, it will be much weaker than one you would get with summoning a stronger one temporarily.

Although, I am unsure if create item, as functional in classic, was temporary or permanent to begin with. I hardly used it.

Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Fri May 25, 2018 8:00 pm

Ziune Wolf wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:40 pm
Although, I am unsure if create item, as functional in classic, was temporary or permanent to begin with. I hardly used it.
It was permanent. And you could sell the item for gold and everything.

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Ziune Wolf
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by Ziune Wolf » Sat May 26, 2018 1:57 am

Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:00 pm
Ziune Wolf wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:40 pm
Although, I am unsure if create item, as functional in classic, was temporary or permanent to begin with. I hardly used it.
It was permanent. And you could sell the item for gold and everything.
Then I feel that conjuring a more powerful item temporarily would provide a different function than a weaker weapon permanently, and so the new temporary item summon effect would make sense inside the new, proposed, conjuration skill.

FilthyCasual523
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by FilthyCasual523 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:36 pm

Honestly, I'd love to have a character be able to join the Cult of Worms and become a necromancer, maybe even become a lich one day.

meritamas
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by meritamas » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:55 am

A good way of thinking about conjuration might be the following. The first thing is that you need to make the selected being materialize where you want it to (conjuration in a narrow sense) - I think a skill might do the trick if it is possible to add to the game. Another thing is to get the creature to do what you want it to do. I see the latter one as a bit more complex. One way I can conceptualize would be the following

1. conjuration in a narrow sense
The act of making a creature of a given kind materialize and perhaps establishing a connection between you and the creature. Whether the creature would materialize could be determined based on a conjuration skill. Once materialized in this manner, a creature should behave in exactly the same way as a normal creature of the same kind you just found would. I don't see this as "I conjured up the thing and it takes me constant effort to keep it here", but, "I conjured up the thing, now it's here. Now what?".

Second, even if the creature did materialize, it wouldn't automatically mean it'll do what you want it to. At the moment of conjuration, you should have a given chance to establish some special connection between you and the creature. If you are not successful at creating this connection, things continue just the same way as if you just encountered the creature. If it's a more sophisticated creature, it might be a bit angry at you for disturbing it, but that could be dealt with in the same manner you would try to pacify something that is angry at you for whatever reason (language skill etc).

The chance you would be able to create this special connection could likewise depend on a conjuration skill but perhaps also on your willpower and the willpower of the creature summoned.

2. On these special connections I was talking about above. I think there should be a mechanic for you to manage your creatures (tell them what to do), as long as you can maintain your influence over them (control them). This could be done in a similar way as you choose which spell to cast. These instructions could include: (1) stay here, (2) follow and protect me - attack my enemies automatically, (3) just follow me - but do not attack my enemies, (4) you are dismissed - in this case you break the connection and the creature behaves normally as if encountered in the wilderness, but is likely very angry at you for subjugating it - especially more sophisticated creatures. If I were a daedra lord or a powerful restless spirit, I would not like the person who was tampering with me very much and would be strongly inclined to try and get my revenge if he eventually lost control or never gained it in the first place. Such a creature might choose not to attack if the conjurer/necromancer is convincing or strong enough - in which case the creature should just start minding its own business and start acting just like any other creature of the same kind would in a similar situation.

Whether and for how long you could maintain control could be contingent on your willpower and the willpower of the controlled being(s). I can think of 3 different cases: (a) your willpower decisively exceeds (like+25 or more) the willpower sufficient to maintain control (this could be calculated based on the number of beings you control, your willpower and their willpower) - in this case you maintain control without further effort and the being(s) continue(s) to execute you last instruction, (b) your willpower exceeds the given threshold, but not decisively - in this case you periodically need to expend magicka points to maintain control, (c) your willpower is decisively insufficient, in this case you lose control (perhaps even of other creatures under your control at that time).

There could, of course, be a random factor - in some very rare cases you could lose control even if your willpower was sufficient simply out of bad luck, and you could miraculously maintain control even if your willpower is insufficient out of good luck.
Spoiler!
I realize that this is very similar to the way the Imperius curse works in Harry Potter and
I am proposing it this way for a reason. Even though implementing such changes could be and is most likely a very challenging task, it could be worth the effort because of all the further implications it would have.

1. I never liked the way conjuration works in Oblivion, because I find it too simplistic and limiting. For one, you could not have more than one bound creature at any given time, one creature is not a real help in difficult situations. And second, you could not tell your undead or daedric companions not to follow, they would just keep following you around, which would and should give you away as a necromancer/conjurer instantly. Yes, I know, they disappear after a short while, but I find this unnecessarily limiting, too. It would be realistic if you could give basic instructions and also, if your ability to control your creatures depended somehow on willpower. It makes sense that a person with a weak will not to be able to influence a daedra lord even if he is able to cast the spell that will summon it.
2. Necromancy. Reanimated corpses could be though of as controlled creatures also. You could have many of them, for corpses would not have willpower to resist you. There could be a reasonable limit, though. Like each controlled creature lowers your effective willpower to control another one by say 10 points. So if you overdo it (or are suddenly cursed and lost some of your willpower), your raised corpses could turn against you.
3. Powerful wizards could have daedra lords guarding them. How impressive that could be?
4. Classical Control. You could force NPC-s to do your bidding. The instructions could also include 'flee me' or 'come to me' or 'disarm yourself'; in conversations, you could choose not only your own words but also the responses the NPC gives to you - from the same list that the AI would choose its response likely based on some random and non-random factors - like a merchant might give you gifts or a bank clerk could forgive a loan or you could turn guards against each other etc. etc. the line of possibilities is endless - still some caution would be needed and we'd need to think things through so we don't break stuff we think should not be broken in this way
5. This could also work on the PC. Like you meet a very powerful wizard/daedra/vampire and suddenly you lose control just like with paralysis but unlike paralysis, you don't fall, but an AI takes over and the enemy forces your character to do all sorts of things.
Interest in expanding and improving the Magic system, Capitalism and an Unleveled World.

Planning to return to Roads too in the coming months.

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King of Worms
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Re: Conjuration/Necromancy

Post by King of Worms » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:39 am

Im all in for conjuration and necromancy. It will blend in game perfectly, esp now with the new enemy AI and all the improvements.
Being able to ressurect a slain enemy or conjure fire attronach like in skyrim, hell yes

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