Solution to the what happens when I click problem

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jayhova
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Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by jayhova » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:29 pm

I've been thinking about this for a little while now and I think I have come up with a solution to the interaction mode problem.

DFU departs from classic in that it removes the HUD bar at the bottom of the screen and replaces it with a far less obtrusive set of icons. The issue is that human vision being what it is, the interaction mode icon is not obvious if you are not looking at it. Players just don't look to see what interaction mode they are in. Why would they? I was thinking about how OpenMW handled stealing where it turned the crosshair red. This is a big plus over classic Morrowind. But with DFU you can change the crosshair to anything you want so that's not a good solution. Then it hit me. What if you added icons for each 'on click' action. This would mean that you would not have to have a mod that changed the default behavior. All you would need is a set of crosshair icons tailored to your taste. If there is no crosshair icon for a particular action it defaults to the default.

So if you did nothing everything works as it does by default. Let's say you make a red crosshair and give that image the same name as the pick lock and pick pocket crosshair. Then anytime clicking on something would cause you to pick locks or pockets the crosshair changes. Maybe you want different ones for each action. Maybe you have an eye for examine mode.

What are your thoughts on this?
Last edited by jayhova on Mon May 20, 2019 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikeprichard
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:58 pm

This wouldn't solve the fundamental issues with the classic "interaction modes" themselves (i.e. having to frequently switch modes to accomplish common tasks as opposed to simply left- vs. right-clicking as needed), as also discussed elsewhere. However, for a light-touch enhancement, at least changing the cursor depending on the contemplated action as you suggest would still be a minor but worthwhile improvement over classic.

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jayhova
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by jayhova » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:26 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:58 pm
This wouldn't solve the fundamental issues with the classic "interaction modes" themselves (i.e. having to frequently switch modes to accomplish common tasks as opposed to simply left- vs. right-clicking as needed), as also discussed elsewhere. However, for a light-touch enhancement, at least changing the cursor depending on the contemplated action as you suggest would still be a minor but worthwhile improvement over classic.
You're right of course. It does not however seem like such a chore to hit one button to change modes. Since you have one right button and multiple interaction modes you have to pick one. Since I already use right click for attacks. It all seems problematic.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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mikeprichard
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:42 pm

Yes, but the classic system still introduces unnecessary button presses, and more importantly, frequent confusion as to which "mode" you're currently in (which I've found quite annoying on many occasions, even now after I've largely refamiliarized myself with Daggerfall through DFU). But I do like your changing cursor idea.

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jayhova
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by jayhova » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:02 am

mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:42 pm
Yes, but the classic system still introduces unnecessary button presses, and more importantly, frequent confusion as to which "mode" you're currently in (which I've found quite annoying on many occasions, even now after I've largely refamiliarized myself with Daggerfall through DFU). But I do like your changing cursor idea.
90% of your time is probably going to be in grab mode. Basically that's hit F3. Problems arise when you are unintentionally in steal mode. Here is a mockup of what I was thinking. As you center your view over a target the crosshair changes to indicate the action that will happen when you click.
cursor demo 1-1.png
cursor demo 1-1.png (256.96 KiB) Viewed 418 times
cursor demo 1-2.png
cursor demo 1-2.png (259.39 KiB) Viewed 418 times
Last edited by jayhova on Mon May 20, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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BansheeXYZ
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by BansheeXYZ » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:10 am

Like Mike said, while your cursor icons are better mode indicators, I'm not sure there's much purpose in improving what should be eliminated (modes). DFU simply uses the view-based interface found in modern games and has no need for toggles.

In other words, stealing currently involves a key press (steal mode), a click (steal), then another keypress (grab mode). Why can't that first keypress simply perform the steal action on what the crosshair is pointing at? It can and it should. It takes 1 click instead of 3, and it's easier to understand than having buttons changing what other buttons do.

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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:03 am

I could see a key for stealing, but talking and attacking are so common actions that it would be quite uncomfortable to relegate one to a keypress.

I guess for these two, having a drawn weapon or not could be what sets you to be in "peaceful" or "combat" mode.

Still, there is a case that can be made for keeping the classic UI choices, at least as an option, for historical preservation reasons.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:34 pm

Agree with Banshee and Al-Khwarizmi. In my UI/controls enhancements topic (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1042), I've suggested what I think is the best and simplest solution in line with later TES and other games:

"OPTIONAL SETTING: Interaction Modes replaced with left-click (talk/use/open/loot), right-click (info), sneak (stealing)"

As Al-Khwarizmi noted, naturally, clicking will only activate these actions when your weapon isn't drawn. Any other changes to address these clunky classic interface mechanics, while welcome, are only half measures with the sole "advantage" of preserving the classic modes for the sake of... preserving the classic modes. Of course, DFU is meant to preserve classic gameplay, but this is possibly the single biggest area where optional enhancements in line with other DFU optional changes (click to attack comes to mind) are sorely needed.

I hope someone with the skills to implement these improvements eventually comes along, because as usual, I'm just here to make work, not do work. :D

Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:43 pm

Now that I notice, the problem between talk and attack doesn't exist with the classic controls since you attack with right button gestures and talk with the left mouse button.

So I think keypresses for steal and info could work. And left click would talk/use/get.

Your solution is optimal for those who succumb to the dark side and choose the click to attack option, though, if that option works with left click (I haven't tried).

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mikeprichard
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Re: Solution to the what happens when I click problem

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:59 pm

You're right that click to attack only uses the right mouse button. But keypresses (e.g. for "info mode") are still largely unnecessary in an ideal modern UI, where the mouse can simply be used for most actions. That would really bring DFU forward another significant step, even for an old-timer like me, let alone for the many new players that will hopefully become engaged with DFU.

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