Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

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Daggerpaws
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by Daggerpaws » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:38 am

Hey Nystul, any chance you could consider implementing my "drop coin as key press" idea as part of your mapping suite?

I'd posted about it on Reddit, and it got some decent feedback, but I wasn't able to get it off the ground. Selected quotes provided:
I'd like to see a dungeon crawling mod that lets you drop 1 gold with a single keystroke.

[...]dropping a single gold piece at each section of an intersection I pass through, to provide an easy reference point for where I have and haven't been. So: F6, click Gold, 1, enter, click exit. Five actions, an uneven assortment of clicks and keys [...] I think that reducing the steps required to drop a single gold piece to a single keystroke would make the dungeons accessible to a larger amount of players, without compromising the balance.

[...]I'd expect a stable, low-level implementation would be something along the lines of checking out what function in the game drops gold when you drop it from the inventory, and then making a settings.ini-defined optional keybind that (if necessary) checks if you've got 1 gold, and then drops it via function that's usually called from the menu.
https://www.reddit.com/r/daggerfallunit ... that_lets/

BansheeXYZ
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by BansheeXYZ » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:33 pm

That sounds like a much more tedious and less reliable version of a suggestion I already had, which is to blink dungeon segments that have unexplored connectors. Dfall dungeon paths aren't commonly simple dead ends you can backtrack out of. A path will fork, and then that path will fork, and then that path will fork, and then you'll go down 2 levels, up 3 levels, fork 3 more times, then fall down a hole into a room you were in 10 minutes ago, leaving a trail of unexplored paths you no longer have full memory of.

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King of Worms
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by King of Worms » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:51 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:33 pm
That sounds like a much more tedious and less reliable version of a suggestion I already had, which is to blink dungeon segments that have unexplored connectors. Dfall dungeon paths aren't commonly simple dead ends you can backtrack out of. A path will fork, and then that path will fork, and then that path will fork, and then you'll go down 2 levels, up 3 levels, fork 3 more times, then fall down a hole into a room you were in 10 minutes ago, leaving a trail of unexplored paths you no longer have full memory of.
No, it makes you navigate dungeons and not rely on the map so much.
Its just two completely different things and one does not cancel the other in any way.
Its a OPTION nobody is forcing you to use and its something many ppl will find useful and immersive.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by BansheeXYZ » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:35 pm

King of Worms wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:51 pm
No, it makes you navigate dungeons and not rely on the map so much.
Its just two completely different things and one does not cancel the other in any way.
Its a OPTION nobody is forcing you to use and its something many ppl will find useful and immersive.
Not rely on the map? Ha. You'll never not need the map with dungeons that are possibly the most complex of all time. Also, this is the map thread. Ways to avoid the map isn't really on topic.

Still, if you're that convinced it will work, post a video of it working. You can already lay down 1gp loot as a marker, so show a video working by exploring a whole dungeon with it. Do the Conclave of Evelyn.

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pango
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by pango » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:53 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:35 pm
Still, if you're that convinced it will work, post a video of it working. You can already lay down 1gp loot as a marker, so show a video working by exploring a whole dungeon with it. Do the Conclave of Evelyn.
Since he can't stand the dungeon maps, IndyofComo on Twitch has been exploring dungeons in classic Daggerfall by making piles of random stuff at each corridor crossing. I think that when he arrives at a new crossing he creates two piles for each way, remove one from the way he starts exploring, and remove the second when he comes back to the same crossing. If he arrives to a crossing from a way marked with two piles, he removes them and turns back. Or something like that.
Slow, but works. But slow.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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Nystul
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by Nystul » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:15 pm

Daggerpaws wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:38 am
Hey Nystul, any chance you could consider implementing my "drop coin as key press" idea as part of your mapping suite?
I think this would be best suited for a small mod - a feeling of mine is that every functionality that does require actions outside the automap window (like in your example an active keypress to drop a coin) should not be implemented in the autmap classes.
I think your idea should be added to the list in viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2094 - because it sounds like a nice optional feature

Btw, the user note markers can be used to mark crossings (place a marker at the start of each corridor you started to explore) - yes you would need to open the map every time to take new notes - but hey isn't this perfect role-play? ;)

BansheeXYZ
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by BansheeXYZ » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:31 pm

Nystul wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:53 pm
3D view will be default view in the future

regarding automap remembering slice level:
this is a bit tricky, as we have to decide between two possible implementations:

Furthermore there will be an ini setting for always maxing out slice level (so no geometry is transparent ever)
I don't see why the ini is even an option yet. You've got F1 thru F12 for toggles. F9 can toggle transparency, F10 can toggle layer shading, F11 can toggle walls, F12 can toggle textures.

The map zoom and rotation features are pretty powerful, I've rarely ever found myself in a place where I couldn't zoom and rotate out of total occulsion. But if you're hellbent on it, the next thing to try is giving each layer its own hotkey F1-F8. Then you could control what layers get ghosted above and below you, not just above you. And you could apply a consistent ghosting effect to all the layers you want to hide instead of awkwardly sliding its intensity between layers. The player position marker line could have a number of your current position. So if it says "4", you know to hit F5+ to ghost out the layers above you for a better view.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by mikeprichard » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:57 pm

What would be incredibly cool (though definitely a mod, and maybe not even possible and/or practical to implement) would be to have simplified 2D automaps for each depth "level" of a dungeon, as in many, many dungeon crawlers and other RPGs (e.g. https://www.oldgames.sk/en/gallery.php? ... image=8931):

Image

Of course, clearly defining the separation between each level may be tricky (ramps/pits/etc.), not to mention the creation of an entirely new dungeon mapping UI. That said, although Nystul has done amazing and much appreciated work with the classic 3D automap, given the extreme complexity of DF's dungeons, any 3D implementation is going to remain frequently confusing and unwieldy no matter how it's implemented.

Just a random tangent here - now please carry on. :)

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King of Worms
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by King of Worms » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:42 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:35 pm
King of Worms wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:51 pm
No, it makes you navigate dungeons and not rely on the map so much.
Its just two completely different things and one does not cancel the other in any way.
Its a OPTION nobody is forcing you to use and its something many ppl will find useful and immersive.
Not rely on the map? Ha. You'll never not need the map with dungeons that are possibly the most complex of all time. Also, this is the map thread. Ways to avoid the map isn't really on topic.

Still, if you're that convinced it will work, post a video of it working. You can already lay down 1gp loot as a marker, so show a video working by exploring a whole dungeon with it. Do the Conclave of Evelyn.
More toxic pls, you behave like you are the one who will put up the work, but you are not. If Nystul said this - which he would never do in this manner - ok. But this coming from you is just a bad joke. I have nothing to prove to you, because you are not the person who will make anything happen. You are not in a position to give a reply like this to anyone and be taken seriously.

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Baler
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Re: Automap (indoor & dungeon) implementation

Post by Baler » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:20 pm

King of Worms wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:42 pm
More toxic pls, you behave like you are the one who will put up the work, but you are not. If Nystul said this - which he would never do in this manner - ok. But this coming from you is just a bad joke. I have nothing to prove to you, because you are not the person who will make anything happen. You are not in a position to give a reply like this to anyone and be taken seriously.
toxic isn't always bad. But I do think that put out or shut up is a great rule of thumb on projects like this.
The internet is never personal. Just say DREAM on <name> and you already won KoW ;)

Ying Yang, Good/Bad & Karma
Part thief, part warrior & wannabe wizard.
I can read C# & C++ well but can't write it.

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