Questions about Armor mechanics

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Feiros
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Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by Feiros » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:36 pm

I just found a nice Daedric Cuirass but looking at the stats, that thing weights almost 16 kilos. Comparing to my Ebony Cuirass that weights only 6.25 with only 4 points less of armor I can't see any real reason to choose the Daedric.

How does armor work? Damage reduction or evasion chance?

Ommamar
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by Ommamar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:33 pm

Most consider ebony to be the best armor due to its weigh/AC ratio. You can enchant more with daedric if I remember correctly but other then that the extra weight for the little bit of AC boost doesn't really make it worth it. Your armor absorbs damage while dodge skill effects your chance to not get hit in combat.

Feiros
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by Feiros » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:24 pm

Ommamar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:33 pm
Your armor absorbs damage while dodge skill effects your chance to not get hit in combat.
Are we sure on that? Because UESP info on armor states that Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you.. :?

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mikeprichard
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by mikeprichard » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:29 pm

Feiros wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:24 pm
Ommamar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:33 pm
Your armor absorbs damage while dodge skill effects your chance to not get hit in combat.
Are we sure on that? Because UESP info on armor states that Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you.. :?
I've recently devoted time to updating many of the Daggerfall UESP pages, and of the pages I've revised so far, these statements at the top of the Armor page did bother me as vague and possibly incorrect. I didn't have the time/energy to raise these questions here when I noticed these statements earlier, but I guess now's as good a time as any:

"Armor provides protection from incoming melee attacks. Each area of your body can only be protected by one armor piece at a time, but your Armor Rating consists of the sum of their defensive values. ... Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you. A high Agility gives you an ability to avoid strikes. That, coupled with an abundance of armor (so you might not feel someone striking you), are ways to increase your Armor Rating."

The above statements are vague and contradictory, and unnecessarily conflate armor with Agility effects. Moreover, I'd already made many edits to this UESP page and others trying to edit the wonky language re: "Armor Rating" to "Armor Modifiers" when talking about the "+X" bonuses conferred by different armor materials. However, I'm still at a loss as to how to amend the problematic statements above, particularly as I can't find anywhere in game that shows your "total" armor rating - only the "modifiers" are shown. Could one of the always patient reverse-engineers please weigh in on what exactly this page needs to say here? A couple specific questions:

1) Do the armor modifiers (e.g. +21 for daedric material) shown in game add to some hidden "base" armor rating values applicable to each armor piece, and if so, what are those "base" values?

2) Does the average across all equipment pieces of each [armor "base" value (if such exists) + armor modifier value] = the amount of incoming physical damage that's reduced, or is a more complicated formula involved?

My baseless suspicion is that the armor modifiers in fact show the total defensive properties of each armor piece, then these values are averaged together to come up with the amount that will be flatly subtracted from incoming physical damage. E.g. if you're wearing all seven pieces of non-shield armor, with four leather (+3 each) and three chain (+6 each), your total damage reduction would be [(4x3) + (3x6)]/7 = 4.3 rounded. Any worn shields would then somehow need to be factored into the equation. But this paragraph is complete guesswork as an example of the detail I'm looking for - facts based on the game code would be appreciated!

Feiros
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by Feiros » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:15 pm

Mike, your beautiful formula just destroyed my theory that each time the player gets hit, the game decides randomly the part of the body that absorbs the damage, then checks the armor you have on that part and finally applies the damage reduction based on whatever armor modifier you had on that part.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by mikeprichard » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:19 pm

Feiros wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:15 pm
Mike, your beautiful formula just destroyed my theory that each time the player gets hit, the game decides randomly the part of the body that absorbs the damage, then checks the armor you have on that part and finally applies the damage reduction based on whatever armor modifier you had on that part.
Ha, I'm just grasping at straws here - you may be right, or we may both be off. Would like to wait to see what the experts say is really going on per the game code (DFU is largely based on reverse-engineered classic Daggerfall data).

Feiros
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by Feiros » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:01 am

mikeprichard wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:29 pm

"Armor Rating is a number representing how difficult it is for someone to hit you. A high Agility gives you an ability to avoid strikes. That, coupled with an abundance of armor (so you might not feel someone striking you), are ways to increase your Armor Rating."

The above statements are vague and contradictory, and unnecessarily conflate armor with Agility effects. Moreover, I'd already made many edits to this UESP page
Something that i just found, for the record.

UESP explanation on armor is just a copy paste directly from Daggerfall's manual(user's guide), page 62.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Questions about Armor mechanics

Post by mikeprichard » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:07 am

Ah, that would explain why it's complete rubbish, then. :lol: Thanks for pointing that out. Will leave this open to the reverse-engineering gurus to explain what's actually going on when they have time.

EDIT: Discussion continued in new classic Daggerfall wiki topic: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514#p29304

EDIT2: Armor mechanics resolved: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514&start=10#p29618

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