Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

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Magicono43
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Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by Magicono43 »

So I should have made a post about this when I first found the problem, but I figure I should do it now at least with the mention of wanting eventual 1.0 to be as stable as possible and such.

I was watching a stream a few weeks ago where the streamer was going through a dungeon of the main quest, and in this particular dungeon block there is that little "window" that you have to do a Source Engine sort of crouch jump to get through normally, the issue is that with the new jump formula if your skill in jumping is too low you can't even make it high enough to get past this part, even when they tried to climb the section and crouch around it they could not seem to get through and I had to tell them to just use the "Teleport" console command to the other side.

Now I have not tried this part myself, so maybe there is a way to get through it even with low jumping skill, but it does seem a bit unnecessary difficult to get through for such a minor obstacle (maybe not as bad as in DOS where you would often get thrown into the void in this spot anyway.)

But yeah, perhaps the jumping height should have a minimum amount that is higher than the current implementation has, just so seemingly impassable obstacles such as this don't require use of the console to get past.

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pango
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by pango »

That has been mentioned before on this forum and on Github

Right now you can get thru without using jumping at all: climb over the window, and when on top of the wall, and without released forward key (climbing), pressing crouch will let you thru the window.
You can also get thru by activating crouching while climbing up, but the timing is rather tight.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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Magicono43
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by Magicono43 »

pango wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:39 pm That has been mentioned before on this forum and on Github

Right now you can get thru without using jumping at all: climb over the window, and when on top of the wall, and without released forward key (climbing), pressing crouch will let you thru the window.
You can also get thru by activating crouching while climbing up, but the timing is rather tight.
Hmm, yeah I figured it was possible, but the streamer I was watching was certainly having a lot of difficulty doing it at the time it seems, lol.

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pango
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by pango »

At least that's consistent with classic Daggerfall experience ;)
Getting thru those windows has always been unreliable in my experience, including probabilities to get stuck or fall into the Void...
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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MrFlibble
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by MrFlibble »

From this discussion, dare I infer that characters in DFU no longer jump higher than Duke Nukem by default regardless of their jumping skill?

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Magicono43
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by Magicono43 »

MrFlibble wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 5:27 pm From this discussion, dare I infer that characters in DFU no longer jump higher than Duke Nukem by default regardless of their jumping skill?
Yeah, that was changed a few versions ago, now the jumping skill actually effects how high you are able to jump by quite a significant amount. To the point at low enough skill levels that your jumps could barely be considered a skip.

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MrFlibble
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by MrFlibble »

Magicono43 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 5:29 pm To the point at low enough skill levels that your jumps could barely be considered a skip.
That's pretty much what you get in vanilla DF unless you're a Khajit, or better yet a Khajit Acrobat (I remember jumping from roof to roof as one of those).

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Interkarma
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by Interkarma »

Jumps do have a minimum height, and it's actually higher than classic. The minimum is tuned so that player can always jump onto throne lift in PH or up small rises. In classic, you can create a character that can't even jump up onto the throne lift. Other than that, jump height is reasonably matched with classic.

If a small increase to minimum jump height helps players cross through that "window" then I'm happy to make that change. But I don't want to make the minimum so high that it basically invalidates Jumping as a skill, which is what DFU was like prior to speed and jump review.

If someone can please attach a save at that spot, I'm happy to take a look at this and resolve.

Opcero
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by Opcero »

I mean the throne can be climbed right? So even bonus DFU gives to jumping seems generous!

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MrFlibble
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Re: Perhaps Jumps Should Have A Minimum Height?

Post by MrFlibble »

Interkarma wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:05 pm Jumps do have a minimum height, and it's actually higher than classic. The minimum is tuned so that player can always jump onto throne lift in PH or up small rises. In classic, you can create a character that can't even jump up onto the throne lift. Other than that, jump height is reasonably matched with classic.
There's an alternate route to the same area as the throne lift gets you in PH, so I'm not sure why you'd tweak this and not preserve the exact original behaviour, unless evidence was found during DOS binary executable analysis that these small jump heights came from an oversight by the original developers and thus constitute a bug.

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