Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
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Interkarma
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Interkarma »

I deleted the wall of posts fully inside quotes.

Please use the quote button sparingly. There's no need to quote an entire post, just the parts you're responding to. If you want to edit a post, this is fine. You can use the edit button rather than make a reply.

Thank you. :)

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Werewolf
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Werewolf »

@MrFlibble I agree that the dungeons in Daggerfall suffered as the devs were just learning procedural generation with a new 3D engine, I’d say that learning a 3D engine was also a factor in the oddness of the dungeons, not just time constraints. Really wonder how the original Elder Scrolls 3 concept would’ve ended up like. There was that 1996 concept map with the entire region of Morrowind but I can’t tell, how big is that concept map supposed to be? I’ve heard talk of design documents for the cancelled 1996 Morrowind but haven’t found them online. My guess is the original idea for Elder Scrolls 3 would’ve continued off Daggerfall with a large, roguelike map, less extreme and more logical dungeons, an even more branching main quest, and even more new mechanics, probably more fleshed out NPC interactions, a more advanced countryside, and random events that affect the game world in complex ways. The original 1996 Morrowind probably would’ve seemed like a more polished Daggerfall at first but would’ve expanded upon the procedural generation and mechanics to be a more complex game and the natural progression of Daggerfall.

Can anyone measure the 1996 concept map? How big is it supposed to be compared to Daggerfall? And where is a link to the design documents?

Vorzak
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Vorzak »

So, what do we call this? Morrofall? Daggerwind? ;)

Obviously, this idea is entirely theoretical. More recent examples of projects and games developed, IMO with a small team a project like this might take decades, just because the scope and scale of it overall, and the fact that the devs would be working on their limited, unpaid free time. Daggerfall Unity is just a new engine to read Daggerfall game files and expand modding capabilities, it’s taken over a decade with a small team to develop and it’s not even finished yet. The DFU community is very small in itself and everyone is working hard focusing on making mods for it. Tamriel Rebuilt and Wayward Realms are good examples, they both have small teams working on massive, ambitious projects. Tamriel Rebuilt will take MANY years before we see it finished, it’s not even half done and they’ve been working on that for over 20 years. From what I’ve seen and read, I doubt Wayward Realms will evolve beyond concept art on a Discord server - they don’t even know how to market their extremely niche game. At my age, I’ll probably be dead before any of these projects are completed, if they even get completed at all.

But regardless, there are a lot of questions about what a game like this would contain and how it would be designed.

With all this talk about recreating Morrowind with a 1:1 scale world with Daggerfall, I just wonder what would be placed within this enormous land space, beyond just cites and dungeons. Does anyone have ideas? There isn’t even any mod yet that does a good job for even Daggerfall’s world space and Morrowind is much larger than the Illiac Bay area and would be millions of square miles in size, so how would you utilize that space? There are only so many of the same ‘scenic vistas’ that a player can find and stare at before they get bored. But, with a world that size, how would you even fill that space with enough to make traveling and exploring reasonable and practical? What would you add? Enemy encounters, resources to gather, unique places to explore, etc.? How would any of that effect gameplay, the player character and the overall world? The best examples we have of mods for Daggerfall is the highly bugged and incomplete Warm Ashes and the WIP World of Daggerfall Project, but afaik they only provide events and a few places to explore and don’t actually impact anything in the game, and is that really enough to justify a wilderness that enormous? In vanilla Daggerfall, the entire gameplay the game offers can be reduced to an extremely small, near theme-park sized world and hardly be affected - there is nothing that requires or justifies its world scale. Can that be changed? I doubt it.

There is much more involved in the design of a game like this than obsessing about the size of its world. I’m guessing this would try to be a unique game on its own, not a near ‘carbon-copy’ of Daggerfall with just the land of Morrowind. In that case, you’d need to create a crap-ton of stuff.

If you are actually going with a 1:1 scale of Daggerfall, there are 44 regions in the Illiac Bay and since Morrowind is much larger, you’d need to divide the continent up into well over 100 regions, or else you’ll get a lot of regions the size of Wrothgarian Mtns - then give them all unique, Morrowind-like names. You can use some of the old textures from Daggerfall, but the goal would be to make the world appear more like Morrowind. For that you’d have to create numerus unique textures that fit the land and culture. What about story and lore? Write your own or copy from the Morrowind game files? Many unique NPCs need to be created, along with their purpose and backstory. There are many unique factions in Morrowind, you’d need to recreate them all and add appropriate quests, lore, services, and unique interactions and conflicts within the world. Old and new mobs need to be added/reworked and placed in their appropriate environments. Old and new items and gear need to be added/reworked, some unique items as well. Many mechanics will need to be brought over, reworked and enhanced. Skills, abilities, spells and character creation options will need to be added, reworked and some removed. There are probably more things to consider, I’m just too tired to think of them atm.

In short, saying it would be a mammoth project is an understatement.

With all do respect, personally, I really hope this "Morrowind Rebuilt" thing stays an idea, and those experienced with programming will just continue to focus on enhancing Daggerfall through modding.

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Werewolf
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Werewolf »

One solution I see to make Morrowind more viable in Daggerfall is to start off small. Start by focusing on just Solstheim, the island added in DLC for Morrowind that was much smaller and more simple then the main island. Starting off with just Solstheim would allow whoever makes the mod to learn how to add new land, new quests, etc. to Daggerfall Unity and how to make an interesting countryside, etc. Then afterwards do Vvardenfell, and then after that do the rest of Morrowind province. Start off small and work your way up

Vorzak
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Vorzak »

Based on what I’ve read here and the post by BadLuckBurt, it’ll still take a very long time and lot of effort to even make Solstheim. I don’t think narrowing it down to a small region is any solution to the major issues that need to be overcome for something like this to even be possible and it won’t make the process easier. It’s certainly not going to make this idea any more appealing to a developer in this community.

If someone is actually interested in this type of project, obviously, go for it! IMO Daggerfall is such an awesome game all on its own and I’m satisfied with it. I’m not so bored with it yet that I have to dream up ideas for creating a new game in a new land.

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numidium3rd
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by numidium3rd »

Vorzak wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:38 pm In vanilla Daggerfall, the entire gameplay the game offers can be reduced to an extremely small, near theme-park sized world and hardly be affected - there is nothing that requires or justifies its world scale.
This is a good point. The landmass is huge in DF but there are far fewer unique things to see than in Morrowind for example. The hugeness of the game doesn't affect gameplay beyond virtually forcing the player to use fast travel but I always assumed it was a stylistic choice. It makes the world you inhabit feel big which I think counts for something even if you end up seeing less than 1% of it.

Vorzak
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Vorzak »

numidium3rd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:20 pm This is a good point. The landmass is huge in DF but there are far fewer unique things to see than in Morrowind for example. The hugeness of the game doesn't affect gameplay beyond virtually forcing the player to use fast travel but I always assumed it was a stylistic choice. It makes the world you inhabit feel big which I think counts for something even if you end up seeing less than 1% of it.
Beyond the very basic illusion of realism, this enormous land size in a game like Daggerfall has no value.

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Werewolf
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Werewolf »

Vorzak wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:37 pm
numidium3rd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:20 pm This is a good point. The landmass is huge in DF but there are far fewer unique things to see than in Morrowind for example. The hugeness of the game doesn't affect gameplay beyond virtually forcing the player to use fast travel but I always assumed it was a stylistic choice. It makes the world you inhabit feel big which I think counts for something even if you end up seeing less than 1% of it.
Beyond the very basic illusion of realism, this enormous land size in a game like Daggerfall has no value.
Daggerfall’s size has the POTENTIAL for value but vanilla Daggerfall didn’t have a good countryside. But even DOS Daggerfall’s massive size gave role playing possibilities and made the game roguelike in nature. Daggerfall Unity mods have made the countryside better but it can still be improved.

Things that I think could make the countryside better would be being able to gather plants for potions, random events and monster encounters, animals from deer that you can kill for food to wolves that attack you lurking about, etc. I think modders could eventually figure out how to make the countryside viable for gameplay.

One idea I think would be interesting if if you spend a lot of time in the countryside the game will give you more valuable random encounters with better loot rewards. Think “countryside scaling.” The more you are in the countryside, the more valuable loot you’ll get from random encounters like a group of human enemies or a group of trolls. Also “countryside scaling” could give you more interesting random events. Another idea is maybe you can randomly encounter NPCs who provide quests that can’t be found anywhere else in the game. Or maybe NPCs that sell you things that can’t be found anywhere else that are only encountered randomly in the countryside. Maybe there can be an NPC that allows you to buy magical items without having to be a high rank in the Mages Guild or create custom spells gif cheaper then the Mages Guild. My idea for countryside shop NPCs is they are randomly encountered and offer items and prices that can’t be found from town/city shopkeepers. This would encourage players to explore the countryside

Vorzak
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Vorzak »

Werewolf wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:14 pm Daggerfall’s size has the POTENTIAL for value but vanilla Daggerfall didn’t have a good countryside. But even DOS Daggerfall’s massive size gave role playing possibilities and made the game roguelike in nature. Daggerfall Unity mods have made the countryside better but it can still be improved.

Things that I think could make the countryside better would be being able to gather plants for potions, random events and monster encounters, animals from deer that you can kill for food to wolves that attack you lurking about, etc. I think modders could eventually figure out how to make the countryside viable for gameplay.

One idea I think would be interesting if if you spend a lot of time in the countryside the game will give you more valuable random encounters with better loot rewards. Think “countryside scaling.” The more you are in the countryside, the more valuable loot you’ll get from random encounters like a group of human enemies or a group of trolls. Also “countryside scaling” could give you more interesting random events. Another idea is maybe you can randomly encounter NPCs who provide quests that can’t be found anywhere else in the game. Or maybe NPCs that sell you things that can’t be found anywhere else that are only encountered randomly in the countryside. Maybe there can be an NPC that allows you to buy magical items without having to be a high rank in the Mages Guild or create custom spells gif cheaper then the Mages Guild. My idea for countryside shop NPCs is they are randomly encountered and offer items and prices that can’t be found from town/city shopkeepers. This would encourage players to explore the countryside
Nothing you suggested though requires that the world be a million square miles in size. In fact, again, everything you presented (also including what other people in this community has suggested) can easily fit and function perfectly within a “theme-park” sized world of the later TES games - literally! A smaller world size wouldn't even diminish roleplay variety. In fact, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have many of those things already in its small wildernesses. All the later games have various forms of hunting and resource gathering throughout the world almost exactly what you suggested. Unique enemy encounters, NPCs, quests and items that can only be found in the wilderness all exist in later games. Of course, like all TES games, much of the world scales to character level. Skyrim has khajiit caravans that provide some unique shopping options can be found at different points in the game, etc. Sure, it’s not exactly the same as your suggestions. But my point is that nothing so far requires the ridiculous size of the world Daggerfall has, it just doesn’t. None of the available DFU mods have changed this, nor do I think they will ever.

We can agree to disagree here, but IMO this “potential” is a bit overstated and overvalued. It feels like this is all trying desperately to justify the over-sized world space simply because it’s there in a classic game we all have different levels of nostalgia for, and some players seem to like the simple realism it gives them, rather than asking if it’s even practical and logical for any reasonable gameplay. IMO, realism in any game is only good if it serves actual meaning, purpose, adds value to gameplay and story and fits together with everything. I have yet to find a meaningful and logical reason for the size of the world in Daggerfall.

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Werewolf
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Re: Project Idea: Morrowind Rebuilt

Post by Werewolf »

My suggestions are a mod that implements a game mechanic where the more you explore the wilderness, the more the game will spawn better loot drops for enemies and spawn traveling merchants that provide items and services that shops don’t. Future Elder Scrolls do have some elements that are similar but they just have tiny wilderness with hand-placed random events and NPCs. With Daggerfall’s size my idea is the game would have a mechanic/counter that awards the player for being in the wilderness and spawns exciting things, almost like a DND GM. Like you’d have to be an avid explorer of the woods before a message pops up and you come across this merchant that sells you magic items, no Mages Guild required. It’s a lot different thing future Elder Scrolls games approach to the wilderness and random events that would give players more of a reason to explore the wilderness and really sink in that feeling of a large world

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