Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Talk about the mods you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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Vorzak
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Vorzak »

daggerdude wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:53 am does any map have to be that big?
Well isn’t that the big debate? (pun intended) While I agree a world really doesn’t have to be that size and scale to be a good sandbox fantasy RPG, it’s obvious that the vision of this project is to mostly keep everything in the DF world intact and unchanged, then expand the map to include all of Tamriel at the same scale. Downsizing to what some might suggest to be a “reasonable” scale would be a huge undertaking as they’d have to remake the entire existing map and world to a great extent, remove many thousands of locations, squeeze remaining places together, remove smaller regions, etc. For most DF players/fans it’d take far too much away from the game and experience overall. It’s not necessary at this point to completely remake the game, particularly for a first experimental project like this.

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Werewolf
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Werewolf »

Vorzak wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:41 pm
daggerdude wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:53 am does any map have to be that big?
Well isn’t that the big debate? (pun intended) While I agree a world really doesn’t have to be that size and scale to be a good sandbox fantasy RPG, it’s obvious that the vision of this project is to mostly keep everything in the DF world intact and unchanged, then expand the map to include all of Tamriel at the same scale. Downsizing to what some might suggest to be a “reasonable” scale would be a huge undertaking as they’d have to remake the entire existing map and world to a great extent, remove many thousands of locations, squeeze remaining places together, remove smaller regions, etc. For most DF players/fans it’d take far too much away from the game and experience overall. It’s not necessary at this point to completely remake the game, particularly for a first experimental project like this.
I agree, at this point it would be easier for someone to add more of the Tamriel landmass to Daggerfall Unity then to remake the Daggerfall Unity map. Also for those of us who played Arena the scope was also incredible, you couldn’t walk to towns due to tech limitations but having all of Tamriel being represented is amazing. Just having an empty Tamriel landmass outside of Daggerfall would still be fascinating and encourage the community to make town and dungeon generator mods to fill up Tamriel.

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Arneb
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Arneb »

I won’t ever stress enough the fact that I’m glad everyone is sort of giving me trust as the guy who will make Tamriel in Daggerfall, but I urge you all to remember that, as long as I don’t put out anything, I’m just one of the (too) many dudes that passed by here making promises :D

That said, let’s go on.
i mean, lets say tamriel entire was the size of what daggerfall is now, its STILL huge.
I read it takes like 3 real days to walk across
It can seem huge for a videogame size, but is it realistic? I gave a look at the whole map of Nirn, and Tamriel is like one of three big landmasses. If we consider Nirn to be the same size of Earth, adding the rest of Tamriel starting from the original Iliac Bay would already be sort of shrinking it.

But that’s not the point, the thing is, I aim to realise two main thing with making Tamriel as big as it should be: help immersion (walking across a continent shouldn’t take 3 days, but 3 months), and giving the feeling you could be the first adventurer to live in a certain backwater village of Elsweyr, or to explore those ruins in the center of Black Marsh. A sort of No Man’s Sky, but in Tamriel :lol:

To answer your last question: does it have to be that big? Not for gameplay reasons, no. But I still think that there’s a lot of people out there that love Daggerfall because you can choose to travel to Wickford or to Wickham, and maybe they both look the same, but they don’t care, because they have been using that hamlet as a base for their adventures for a long time now, and the owner of the tavern near their house, even if it’s a flat that looks exactly as thousand other flats around the world, now for them has a personality, a background, almost a soul :lol:
And part of this, is because they are in Wickford, and not in Wickham. Even if they look almost the same.
It probably isn’t very clear, just wanted to say how I feel about it ;)

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Werewolf
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Werewolf »

I like that you plan to keep Tamriel canonically big. I’ve seen people say that Daggerfall’s entire world should’ve been just the size of Daggerfall region (where you start the game in) but I’m pretty sure that if the game was that size you’d still have people saying it’s too big. Daggerfall’s realistically scaled world gives you endless possibilities and places to go, and adding the rest of Tamriel would be utterly amazing. Keep Tamriel big, a realistically scaled Tamriel would get a lot of press and thus new members of the Daggerfall Unity community and establish the game as having endless possibilities for new mods and content.

But of course, start off basic, with just the Tamriel landmass. Just add the Tamriel landmass to Daggerfall. Towns and dungeons can come later. Just create an empty Tamriel landmass and that will be the first step towards the future of Daggerfall Unity. Previous attempts by others didn’t succeed because they planned to have towns and dungeons from the start. Don’t try to do that. Just add the Tamriel landmass, and that’s it. Towns, dungeons, and lore elements can come later, the most important thing is an empty Tamriel landmass

Sappho20
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Sappho20 »

Arneb wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:43 am To answer your last question: does it have to be that big? Not for gameplay reasons, no. But I still think that there’s a lot of people out there that love Daggerfall because you can choose to travel to Wickford or to Wickham, and maybe they both look the same, but they don’t care, because they have been using that hamlet as a base for their adventures for a long time now, and the owner of the tavern near their house, even if it’s a flat that looks exactly as thousand other flats around the world, now for them has a personality, a background, almost a soul :lol:
And part of this, is because they are in Wickford, and not in Wickham. Even if they look almost the same.
It probably isn’t very clear, just wanted to say how I feel about it ;)
Yes, I couldn't agree more. Daggerfall is as much in my head as it is on the screen. Even if the people and places all look the same, somehow they are feel unique to me and the vast empty unknown wilderness that surrounds them only adds to that sense of reality. The village down the track and through a forest, the village on the hill, the village with a view of the bay. That's why I almost never instant fast travel anywhere because it takes the settlement out of the wilderness and makes the place feel as procedurally generated as it actually is.

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jayhova
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by jayhova »

Arneb wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:43 am But that’s not the point, the thing is, I aim to realise two main thing with making Tamriel as big as it should be: help immersion (walking across a continent shouldn’t take 3 days, but 3 months
Daggerfall includes time compression. Your PC actually moves significantly faster and days go by significantly faster. I'm sure someone can tell me how much an hour of real-time equals in game-time. My guess is that a full day goes by after an hour or two. This of course means that if it takes 3 real-time days to walk across the map in game days would likely be an order of magnitude more than this.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

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Arneb
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Arneb »

It’s actually quite easy:

INGAME - REAL TIME

1 minute - 5 seconds
1 hour - 5 minutes
1 day - 2 hours
1 month - 60 hours

Obviously, this is meant with no actual time compression (fast travel, rest, loiter…).

But yep, when I say that crossing a continent should require three months, I mean three months ingame. Ingame and real time should be always kept separated when doing this kind of consideration, IMO.

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jayhova
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by jayhova »

Arneb wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:26 am
1 day - 2 hours
Hey what do you know, my guess was about right. This is where we come across the bounds of human psychology. People can't tolerate a game running in actual real-time. I have a store literally 2 blocks from my house. It will take me 5 mins or so to walk there and the same 5 min to walk back. People do not want to do that in a video game. It would take hours just to walk or even ride to shops, run quests, visit the temple, go to the guild, and visit the castle. This would make the game tedious and unplayable. So time compression exists. What isn't in Daggerfall is a sense of space compression. In the modern world we are so used to moving at high rates of speed (in cars etc.), we hardly notice the time compression in Daggerfall.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

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Werewolf
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Werewolf »

I believe if your character has 60+ speed and uses a horse you can manually travel to other locations using less in-game time then fast travel. I like how Daggerfall is a game that allows the player to move quickly because the map is the size of a real country, that’s the opposite of how in Morrowind you go really slow as the map is extremely condensed.

Any progress on the Tamriel landmass?

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Arneb
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Re: Arena / Tamriel Rebuilt... in Daggerfall!

Post by Arneb »

Werewolf wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:30 pmAny progress on the Tamriel landmass?
Not at all: as I said, I’m still busy working on my last mod, so I won’t be able to dedicate myself full time to this project until I finish that.

In the mean time, I’m checking the various existing programs that pack and unpack .BSA files. I would ideally code some kind of interface to make setting ground, climate and regions as intuitively as possible.
It doesn’t seem anything too hard to accomplish, but I have to admit my knowledge of the subject is still limited.

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