Enemy buddies in the same room

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AncientGrief
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:28 am
Location: Germany

Enemy buddies in the same room

Post by AncientGrief »

Hey :)

I was wondering how often you come across multiple humanoid enemies in the same room or out in the world in vanilla DFU. Also, is it possible to sneak past them in Daggerfall, or would I need mods to make it more likely that they don't notice me?

I've played the game on and off but never enough to see the full picture. I have an idea for a mod and was wondering how common this situation is.

I always thought the human enemies in the first dungeon were friendly to each other, but they're not! xD
When I lure one to another, they actually fight each other.
My Mods:
DaggerBlood - Adds more blood to DFU => https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/964

Also know as Excoriated on NexusMods

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MrFlibble
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Re: Enemy buddies in the same room

Post by MrFlibble »

AncientGrief wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:56 pm I always thought the human enemies in the first dungeon were friendly to each other, but they're not! xD
When I lure one to another, they actually fight each other.
The monster infighting feature is an innovation that was added in DFU, which is for some reason turned on by default. I always turn it off, because monsters never attack each other in vanilla.

That said, there are definitely rooms in dungeons that contain several humanoid enemies, but usually they are of the same type. There are various kinds of rather common large rooms, sometimes at the end of a really long sequence of corridors (with no way further out of the room except to turn back), and with several treasure piles, that will house 3+ humanoid enemies -- from my experience, mostly humans or orcs. If you have a decent Stealth skill, they will not immediately try to crowd on you, but otherwise it feels natural to lure them out one by one through the room's entrance.

Also there's one room with a four-handed female idol, with about six adjacent small cells that will open up if you touch the idol, releasing whatever monsters and/or other enemies there are in the cells -- again, this may pit you against six or so human enemies. Also there's another large room at the top of what was probably supposed to be a tower, again with much treasure and a lot of human enemies.

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AncientGrief
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:28 am
Location: Germany

Re: Enemy buddies in the same room

Post by AncientGrief »

Thank you very much for your insight. Valuable information for me! :D Especially the infighting part, someone on Reddit told me the same. Didn't actually know that, last time I played the OG DOS version was yeaaaars ago.
My Mods:
DaggerBlood - Adds more blood to DFU => https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/964

Also know as Excoriated on NexusMods

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MrFlibble
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Re: Enemy buddies in the same room

Post by MrFlibble »

I am honestly puzzled as to why the infighting feature was added at all. It seems that it makes certain monster types intrinsically hostile to other monster types, forcing them to attack one another whenever they happen to be nearby. This is completely different from monster infighting in games like Doom, where certain types of monsters will retaliate if and only if another monster accidentally hits them (while targeting the player).

I can only imagine that since monster AI in DFU is more efficient compared to vanilla, this somehow mitigates the effect by thinning out the monster population in a dungeon without the player's interference -- but it's still kind of a very odd approach, even if that assumption is true. There is very little sense in removing a part of a dungeon's population without the player even doing anything -- especially since, IIRC, you get a message about every monster that dies regardless of how close you are to that monster (presumably this was done originally to inform the player of any monster that dies off-screen from falling damage or continuous damage spell effects).

It seems that some players do like the infighting mechanic, but personally I feel it adds nothing to the game and does not improve the playing experience in any significant way. It could probably work as a part of a very substantial overhaul of how combat generally works in the game and how dungeons are populated with enemies. But I'm not sure that even the Doom kind of infighting would make much sense with certain enemy types -- after all, in Doom there are zombies and demons, while I doubt that human NPCs in DF would be that prone to attacking one another if they're supposed to be on the same side (e.g. guards in a castle or bandits in a hideout), even one accidentally hits another while trying to get at the player.

I can imagine scenarios where you would run into two or more clashing factions in a dungeon -- but this probably requires a different kind of dungeon layout, and much more advanced NPCs/enemies. Theoretically, there could be rival adventurers exploring a dungeon and fighting whatever they come across just like you; or a knightly order being besieged in their castle by orcs or necromancers or whatever; or a jail where inmates break out and attack the guards. But for this to work well, you'd need to rework the dungeons to actually look like such places where the action of this kind would make sense, and also rework the enemy AI so that they would be able to handle this one their own, or support advanced scripts where a castle siege or a jailbreak would actually look like what it is supposed to be.

The current way of doing infighting feels very superficial. Sure, there's some general logic behind "animals always attack the undead because the undead are unnatural", but let's say you have a necromancer's stronghold with bats and skeletons? Or a Vampire Ancient that commands both bats and the undead? Or perhaps you have a coven of druids that have bears and spriggan allies? You can look up the dungeon types in vanilla DF, and very obviously the designers mixed different monster types to create different themes, and it was clearly intended that all monsters in a dungeon are on the same side

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