[MOD] Climates & Calories

[Ralzar]

Just finished the Wet effects, which was a total bitch. I'm noticing how my code is getting messy and harder to update. I'll have to rebuild this from the ground up soon, or new features will be a total mess.

But for now, I only have these plans left before next release:

* Make wading also make you wet.(Though not as wet as swimming)
*Implement settings for the water effect, plus possibly some of the stuff Jeoshua suggested.
*Possibly tidy up what I just coded.

[Dubiousintent]

Then it seems like an appropriate time to chime in with some observations made while using C&C v0.8.5 on DFU 0.10.14 with my first character (an Argonian custom class).

* Installed but not "enabled", still getting "overheating", "chilled" messages. Not clear if they are part of the base game or added by this mod. If added by the mod, they should stop when "disabled".
* Not clear from the UESP pages (or the mod description) just what effect (if any) these "feeling temperature" messages have on the character. The "HFM" status bars are "post facto" and therefore don't help trying to prevent damage. Have noticed "Health" bar dropping outside of combat (no poison or disease) which was attributed to this mod.
EX: Within the same hour of apparent foggy weather in Gothway Gardens (Daggerfall Province) shortly after first exiting the "Privateer's Hold" dungeon. Had to disable C&C until I could get to town in order to buy more appropriate clothing. Promptly got "cold", bought clothing, then "overheated" with two cloaks, took off one, then "getting heatstroke", removed 2nd cloak, wearing long shirt, pants, steel armor, and got "chill comes over you". Seemed impossible to find an "appropriate" mix of clothing. For a beginning character, this leads to additional frustration.
* Mod Description needs to lay out what kind of clothing is required for various temperature ranges. There needs to be appropriate clothing mix for each type of weather with "transition" notices.
* Need some kind of temperature display if it's going to swing wildly during the day. (Personally, more than twice a day becomes overly "micro-management" intense and gets the mod disabled.)
* Then I moved to Sentinel and things got even worse. All while still having C&C disabled.

Much of this is probably due to this being my first experience with DFU (though I did play Classic back when it was released until Morrowind came out). But my memory back that far is too foggy to go by. OTOH, reducing new player frustration beyond that designed into the game is important to success.

I would also like to request you utilize the "Changelog" feature on the NexusMods description page to note the improvements for each version. It helps not only with the "do I already have this version" but also the "do I NEED this version" questions every updated notice brings.

[Jeoshua]

*Implement settings for the water effect, plus possibly some of the stuff Jeoshua suggested.
*Possibly tidy up what I just coded.

Sorry I know I come up with lots of stuff. Trust that I know what's possible and what's impossible with coding tho.

As far as Tidying, I say save that for a major version update. Make it work okay first, even if it's spaghetti. Then refactor or rewrite as much as you need to make it cleaner.

[Ralzar]

Then it seems like an appropriate time to chime in with some observations made while using C&C v0.8.5 on DFU 0.10.14 with my first character (an Argonian custom class).

Feedback is allways welcome (as long as it's constructive). The feedback has been great, but there's not a lot I can do with "I love it!" other than continuing doing what I'm doing.

* Installed but not "enabled", still getting "overheating", "chilled" messages. Not clear if they are part of the base game or added by this mod. If added by the mod, they should stop when "disabled".

This is my mod unless you are referring to the text that pops up when getting near a dungeon entrance. There is NO WAY that you will get these messages if the mod is not enabled. Check your mod settings.

* Not clear from the UESP pages (or the mod description) just what effect (if any) these "feeling temperature" messages have on the character.

The feature description should sum this up?

Fatigue
When too hot or cold, you will start losing fatigue. With the text:
"It's too hot for you here..." or "A chill rolls through you..."
Attribute Debuffs
When the temperature gets more extreme, it will start slowly debuffing all attributes except Luck and switch the text to:
"Heat stroke is setting in..." or "It's miserably cold here..."
Damage
When the temperature gets extreme, you will start to lose health. The text changes to:
"You feel like you're burning up!" or "Your teeth are chattering uncontrollably!"
With an added: "You cannot go on much longer in this weather..."

Note though, that with Argonians you have a long period where temperature affects them less, then when it hits, it's extreme.

EX: Within the same hour of apparent foggy weather in Gothway Gardens (Daggerfall Province) shortly after first exiting the "Privateer's Hold" dungeon. Had to disable C&C until I could get to town in order to buy more appropriate clothing. Promptly got "cold", bought clothing, then "overheated" with two cloaks, took off one, then "getting heatstroke", removed 2nd cloak, wearing long shirt, pants, steel armor, and got "chill comes over you". Seemed impossible to find an "appropriate" mix of clothing. For a beginning character, this leads to additional frustration.

This is probably problematic for two reasons:
*The game starts in winter, so it's going to be cold when you get out of the first dungeon.
*Argonians are sensitive to cold.

* Mod Description needs to lay out what kind of clothing is required for various temperature ranges. There needs to be appropriate clothing mix for each type of weather with "transition" notices.

I've been thinking of including some kind of manual at some point. We'll see.

* Need some kind of temperature display if it's going to swing wildly during the day. (Personally, more than twice a day becomes overly "micro-management" intense and gets the mod disabled.)

I've been thinking of a temperature display, but that will take whole different set of coding skills and I feel the text messages give sufficient information.
The temperature shold not be fluctuating during the day unless the weather changes, it switches between day/night or you change what kind of clothes/armor you wear.

* Then I moved to Sentinel and things got even worse. All while still having C&C disabled.

You might have done something wrong in the DFU setup, because there is no way for the mod to affect anything if it is not enabled. Sentinel should generally be better for you, as argonians prefer the heat. But note that plate armor gets heated up in the sun. In the desert you're basically wearing boiler plates.

I would also like to request you utilize the "Changelog" feature on the NexusMods

Hm, haven't seen this feature. Will search for it.

[Dubiousintent]

Re: Temperature messages. They were appearing in town, and I not only checked settings several times, I restarted from my earliest save. Now that you have confirmed they are coming from C&C, I'm wondering if they (or a mod flag) got baked into an early save before I disabled C&C during the course of the run out of "Privateer's Hold" (PH) in order to get to town? Can C&C be disabled after starting? If they are going to allow changing mod settings from within the game, it's going to be needed.

Re: Feature description. Missed those descriptions (on Nexus) initially when I pulled the mod from the DFU site. They make clear what (Fatigue/Health) gets affected when. (I've been chasing my tail with this for a while.) They are adequate now.

Re: starting in winter. Given the racial temperature factors, would it be possible to give such starting characters (at least in the initial dungeon/region) minimally climate appropriate clothing? Otherwise they are liable to not be able to get to the nearest town before dying to weather. (I was getting "chill" messages before I got out of the first rat room of PH. Being unable to rest makes Fatigue loss fatal. (Though it's gotten better with the latest engine versions letting you clear out a safe zone.)

On that same note, regarding the Taureg clothing example: Add a type of "summer weight" cloak and "helmet/hat" to protect armor wearers by allowing evaporation, as well as adding the need for periodic doses of water to the game. (US Army doctrine used to 1 Liter/hour in "high wet bulb" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature environments.) Layering to allow evaporation is the key. Cold weather gear is designed to "wick" moisture away from the body to reduce the evaporation effect on the skin so it doesn't freeze causing frost bite. Similarly it's the "wicking" effect of light weight garments under the armor that cools the body. An additional porous layer is needed over the armor to reduce the "oven" effect and allow moisture to evaporate.

Also, from experience and training, you feel "cold" with a 15 degree drop in temperature. You need at least a sweater when it drops from 110 to 95F, regardless of climate zone. It's mind boggling to feel like it's winter at 90 degrees, but it can.

[Ralzar]

There is something messed up in your end here with the mod. Because this is not a mod that in any way gets saved. It gets loaded into the MagicRound system at startup and from there checks each round (aprox ever 2 secs) what debuffs to apply.
If you transfer your savgame to a build without the mod there will be no temperature effects.
Only thing I can reccomend you at this point is to check that you are not using a shortcut that points to a different install of the game than you think you are using or to delete the .dfmod file temporarily to make sure it is not running.
Alternatively, just delete everything DFU related on your machine and re-download and re-install it and all mods.
(Saves are stored in a seperate location, so deleting DFU will not delete saves)

I am not able to affect starting equipment, so here you just have to be a bit lucky. Tip: the mod does not run during resting.

About the desert clothing: wait for the next update. I'm not doing anything that detailed, because Daggerfall doesn't have the clothing option for it, but I've just managed to split Casual Cloak (thin) and Formal Cloak (thick) so they act differently.

[Daniel87]

Did dubious maybe extract the mod files so they are still active as loose files when the mod packages is deactivated?
(Not sure if that is even possible)

[TheLacus]

Did dubious maybe extract the mod files so they are still active as loose files when the mod packages is deactivated?
(Not sure if that is even possible)

No, this isn't possible.

[Jeoshua]

To be technical, it's not possible to do this accidentally. The script files could be extracted. They could be used loose. They would have to be placed specifically in a specific directory, the original dfmod deleted, and the game would have to be loaded with the Unity Editor. Even then, however, a deactivated mod is a deactivated mod. I personally have activated and deactivated C&C countless times and never experienced any of what is being described. I did have a similar experience, however, when the name of the got changed and I therefore had two copies activated.

[Ralzar]

I changed the name at some point? Whoops.