Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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Jay_H
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Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Jay_H » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:54 am

Classic established that attributes such as Strength and Intelligence should cap at 100. Third-party utilities made possible increasing stats beyond 100. To not mess with the classic iteration, I suggest this be moddable at some point to allow infinite growth of attributes.
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pango
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by pango » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:10 am

Hi Jay_H,
I assume you're thinking of DagSkills mod/patch; It caps abilities and skills to 200, going further can break formulas.
In fact with DagSkills negative prices were known to crop up when your mercantile was too high, I don't know if it ever got fixed.

That's one of the few patches I don't install in classic, it's not necessary to complete the main quest, and changes game balance. On the other hand I can understand why one would want it if you keep playing with one character, and don't want to end up with the "100% everywhere" character like everyone else...
Last edited by pango on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jay_H
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Jay_H » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:18 am

Hah, I only ever got to 130ish with skills so I definitely got that wrong :D But yeah, I dislike being limited at 100s. One of the great thrills of Daggerfall to me is the ability to make yourself really, totally unbalanced and annihilating everything in your path. Thanks for the clarification.
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CM August
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by CM August » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:15 pm

In-universe, I interpret 100 to be the absolute peak of mortal achievement. On the other hand, if an option to let them grow indefinitely becomes available in the future, I'd love to see it as something that can be "unlocked" during normal play. After all, there's no shortage of deities in the Elder Scrolls universe who may reward the player with means to break those limits and go even further beyond... :)

Narf the Mouse
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:01 am

CM August wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:15 pm
In-universe, I interpret 100 to be the absolute peak of mortal achievement. On the other hand, if an option to let them grow indefinitely becomes available in the future, I'd love to see it as something that can be "unlocked" during normal play. After all, there's no shortage of deities in the Elder Scrolls universe who may reward the player with means to break those limits and go even further beyond... :)
One of the original intentions of the game was to allow your character to potentially become a god.

Also, still on the topic of attributes above 100, I like the method of adjusting the maximum by the racial modifier. So, for a completely arbitrary example, if your racial modifiers are:

Code: Select all

+10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10
Then your attribute maximums are:

Code: Select all

110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90
I also like the idea of a soft cap instead of a hard cap; perhaps every additional point in an attribute costs extra points according to how many full or partial multiples of the cap you've exceeded? (RPG rulebook speak) So, for example, with a character of that race, 110 Strength would cost 110 points; 111 Strength would cost 112 points. And 220 Strength would cost 330 points. To put a rough idea out there.

Also, "...at some point that just started to become meaningless".
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Jay_H
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Jay_H » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:07 am

Narf the Mouse wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:01 am
Also, still on the topic of attributes above 100, I like the method of adjusting the maximum by the racial modifier. So, for a completely arbitrary example, if your racial modifiers are:

Code: Select all

+10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10
Then your attribute maximums are:

Code: Select all

110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90
I like your whole post, but this to me is really good. A Breton or High Elf should definitely have greater magic potential than a Nord or a Khajiit in a permanent sense, and so on.

One example of a soft cap is in Mount & Blade. At first increasing your weapon skill requires only 1 point at a time, but soon each point required 3, then 4, then later on 7 points at a time.
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:53 am

Cross-linking a relevant conversation/post: https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic ... 794#p15792

On using advantages/disadvantages to adjust attribute caps.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

meritamas
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:33 pm

Jay_H wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:07 am
Narf the Mouse wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:01 am
Also, still on the topic of attributes above 100, I like the method of adjusting the maximum by the racial modifier. So, for a completely arbitrary example, if your racial modifiers are:

Code: Select all

+10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10
Then your attribute maximums are:

Code: Select all

110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90
I like your whole post, but this to me is really good. A Breton or High Elf should definitely have greater magic potential than a Nord or a Khajiit in a permanent sense, and so on.
I like this idea, but would modify it a little. Like for a race with the following stats

Code: Select all

+10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10
I would argue

Code: Select all

120, 80, 120, 80, 120, 80, 120, 80
or even

Code: Select all

130, 70, 130, 70, 130, 70, 130, 70
would be better limits of achievement under normal circumstances.

Perhaps there might be attributes I wouldn't tweak in this way. Or an alternative would be to turn off limits completely and let the player decide which attributes to develop. As I see it, currently, it is not possible to gain too many levels, so there is an implicit hard aggregate maximum limit there. (If you can only gain 23 levels and you get a max. of 6 attribute points per level, then you only get 138 points in total no matter what. This last idea - turning the limits off completely - is probably not a good one, I just wanted to illustrate the extreme on that side of the argument.
I would also argue that more possibilities like
Spoiler!
Oghma Infinitum - tried this feature out, too
can be put into the game but only at the end of difficult quests or quest lines.
Jay_H wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:54 am
Classic established that attributes such as Strength and Intelligence should cap at 100. Third-party utilities made possible increasing stats beyond 100. To not mess with the classic iteration, I suggest this be moddable at some point to allow infinite growth of attributes.
CM August wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:15 pm
In-universe, I interpret 100 to be the absolute peak of mortal achievement. On the other hand, if an option to let them grow indefinitely becomes available in the future, I'd love to see it as something that can be "unlocked" during normal play. After all, there's no shortage of deities in the Elder Scrolls universe who may reward the player with means to break those limits and go even further beyond... :)
I like the basic idea, but wouldn't make the potential infinite. Yes, 100 can be thought of as the absolute peak of mortal achievement, but also, we could think of ways by which and circumstances under which these limits can be transcended and to what degree.

EDIT: I had a couple of thoughts + I'd like to give a synthesis of what I was trying to say.
I would propose a system in which there would be normal circumstances and extraordinary circumstances.
Under "normal circumstances", there would be set upper limits, but these would not all be 100, but instead could vary by race or class. It makes perfect sense to have a High Elf or a Breton able to achieve more in the field of magic naturally, and e.g. a Nord or a Khajiit better naturally suited for physical challenges. Based on the character's race, in the attributes the given race has an advantage in, the upper limit could be as high as 125 with upper limits of 80 applied to those attributes where the given race has a comparative disadvantage (100*1.25=125 while 80*1.25=100) . These modifications could be thought of as follows. We consider 100 to be the pinnacle of mortal achievement, on average, but the individual races have their general tendencies, as discussed above, so 100 is the maximum that a member of a race with an average amount of talent in a given attribute gets. In attributes that the race excels in, it gets a higher maximum and in attributes it is weaker in, it gets a lower maximum. Optionally, during class creation, these could be rearranged by the player (I am not sure this possibility to rearrange would be good, just another suggestion to consider).

Then, there would be extraordinary circumstances. E.g. you finish a difficult quest line for the Gods or Deadra or a very powerful and ancient wizard (quests and quest-lines to be modded in, also) and as a reward, you can somehow become even greater at some attribute.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

meritamas
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:22 pm

It is not strictly on topic, but I thought I'd add some thoughts about skills above 100 because this seems to be the best place to put them.

When it comes to the limits regarding skills, I am thinking of a similar system to the one I just described for attributes.
There could be different upper limits to the individual skills. One influencing factor could be race. A second could be the class:
+X1 for Primary skills
+X2 for Major skills
+X3 for Minor skills
-X4 for miscellaneous skills

This could also allow for the achievement of higher levels (in case X1=25, X2=10, X3=0 and X4=-20 we get 75+20=95 more leveling points, meaning around +6 to maximum level that could be reached based on this second mechanism alone and potentially more if the Primary, Major and Minor skills coincide with the skills favored for the given race)

This is enough to describe the basic idea, but I would gladly (help) develop this idea further if it is worth pursuing.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

meritamas
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Location: Slovak Republic

Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Sat May 18, 2019 8:32 am

I have read through the descriptions of races here and come up with the following.

Breton: STR -2 END +0 INT +2 WIL +2 SPEED +0 AGI -2
High Elf: STR -2 END -2 INT +2 WIL +2 SPEED +0 AGI +0
Wood Elf: STR -1 END -2 INT 0 WIL -1 SPEED +2 AGI +2
Dark Elf: STR +0 END -2 INT +1 WIL +0 SPEED +0 AGI +1
Redguard: STR +2 END +0 INT -2 WIL -2 SPEED +1 AGI +1
Nord: STR +2 END +2 INT -2 WIL +0 SPEED -1 AGI -1
Khajiit: STR -1 END +1 INT +0 WIL -2 SPEED +1 AGI +1
Argonian: STR -1 END +1 INT +1 WIL +0 SPEED -1 AGI +0

The table is to be interpreted in the following way.
-2 means that the given race has a base maximum of 80 defined for the given attribute. Likewise, -1 implies a maximum of 90, +0 a maximum of 100, +1 a maximum of 111 and +2 a maximum of +125.
I tried to set the figures so that it be as well balanced as I could manage. I left out personality and luck so that each race has equal opportunity in these areas.

Regarding skills: the basic rule could be that a character of a given race can master a skill to the same maximum as the base maximum stated above for the attribute that governs the given skill + any extra points enabled by the fact that the given skill is the character's primary etc. skill. So, e.g. a Redguard with Axe as his primary skill could develop that skill up to 150.

ADDITION: another example could be a High Elf who has Axe as his miscellaneous skill could only develop that skill up to 60.

ADDITION 2: the skill increase mechanism would also need fine-tuning. I think the amount of effort it takes to develop a given skill should be contingent not on current skill level, but on the difference between its maximum and current state. E.g.
If there is no change in this mechanism, then for the High Elf from the previous example to develop his Axe skill from 55 to 60, the effort required would be the same as the effort required of the Redguard from the previous example to do the same, despite the fact that the Redguard has much higher potential; to the Redguard, from 55 to 60 should be relatively easy and for the High Elf, very hard.

Now I can see one likely reason why the creators of the original game didn't go into this - it gets very complex very fast. But if we get it right, though, I think it would make a much better system.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

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