0.10.4: Magic item degrading

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Interkarma » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:30 pm

Good and concise, thank you Pango.

What about fast travel, full resting, and prison time I wonder?

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:56 pm

Pango, thanks as always for your work! I think your notes are largely in line with my recent update to the classic Daggerfall wiki magical item durability data at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mag ... ical_Items, though at least for classic Daggerfall, it was indicated there (which I didn't change for lack of data proving the contrary) that re-equipping a "when held" item will decrease its durability by 5 each instance. You indicate that value may be 27. This is yet another thing on the list of questions that would be easier to answer with reverse-engineering the classic code, but are you able to confirm whether this reduction of 27 points applies to all "when held" items, or is it maybe only larger in your tested case because of the larger Daedric material capacity of 12000 (just a guess here)?
Last edited by mikeprichard on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pango
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by pango » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:59 pm

Interkarma wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:30 pm
What about fast travel, full resting, and prison time I wonder?
  • fast travel: traveled to Blackwold, Daggerfall, then to Wayrest, Wayrest, the plate didn't wear at all;
  • cast all my magicka, rested at an inn with the plate on, it kept wearing at its 1 HP/hour rate (checked twice);
  • managed to stay 3 days in prison for resting in Gavaudon, Gavaudon: no plate wear at all.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:02 pm

Re: fast travel - the wiki currently indicates fast travel of at least 1 day is required to cause durability loss; could you please test that a bit and let us know (as well as my 27 vs. 5 question above on re-equipping non-Daedric items)? I can't easily test things in classic right now, so this is much appreciated!

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pango
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by pango » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:34 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:56 pm
You indicate that value may be 27. This is yet another thing on the list of questions that would be easier to answer with reverse-engineering the classic code, but are you able to confirm whether this reduction of 27 points applies to all "when held" items, or is it maybe only larger in your tested case because of the larger Daedric material capacity of 12000 (just a guess here)?
Maybe it's not the same unit or something (I remember seeing lots of /4 in discussions before, mmmh).
Anyway, I redid more measures, and it seems it was 26 HP instead of 27. Somehow I must have accounted for 1 hour of wear in previous measures.
Anyway, my new tests:

Code: Select all

Unequipping Daedric Torgo's Boots: 7560/12000
Re-equipping: (-34 HP) 7526/12000

Unequipped Open Torgo's Tunic: 1500/1500
Equipped: (-34 HP) 1466/1500

Unequipped Short shirt of the Wise: 1500/1500
Equipped: (-34 HP) 1466/1500

Unequipped Peasant blouse of the Wise: 1500/1500
Equipped: (-34 HP) 1466/1500

Unequipped Priestess robes of Orc Lord: 1500/1500
Equipped: (-26 HP) 1474/1500
again:    (-26 HP) 1448/1500
again:    (-26 HP) 1422/1500

Unequipping Daedric Plate of Orc Lord: 11645/12000
Equipped: (-26 HP) 11619/12000
Again:    (-26 HP) 11593/12000
So it seems the wear depends on the effect, and not of the item capacity. I'm not sure if the wear of each effect matches some other effect metric, or if it will have to be measured for each effect...
mikeprichard wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:02 pm
Re: fast travel - the wiki currently indicates fast travel of at least 1 day is required to cause durability loss; could you please test that a bit and let us know (as well as my 27 vs. 5 question above on re-equipping non-Daedric items)? I can't easily test things in classic right now, so this is much appreciated!
Cautious fast travel to Wayrest, Wayrest took 23 days, so I measured no wear at all for much longer travels than that.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:47 pm

OK! So I think two changes to the classic wiki section (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mag ... ical_Items) may be warranted:

1) Deleting the phrase "..., or c) you fast-travel for a period of at least 1 day with the item equipped."
2) Amending "The item's enchantment health will decrease by 5 every time it is re-equipped" to something more flexible per your testing, e.g. "The item's enchantment health will decrease by a varying amount (generally in the range of 26 to 34, depending on the item) every time it is re-equipped..."

I'm not sure re: 2) how specific we can/should get on the range of values, given the testing is still somewhat limited. Thoughts?

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pango
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by pango » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:58 pm

If I had to guess, the wear is probably related to a parameter of the magicka cost of the classic spell based on the same effect (Orc Strength, Feet of Notorgo,...), or its cost for a fixed magic school proficiency.
But the only way to be sure would be to do a lot of measurements (say, check that it really doesn't depend on character's level or proficiency with school of magic)... or some reverse-engineering.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:06 pm

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines... may be better to correct the "27" to a range of "generally 20 to 40" for now so the wiki isn't clearly incorrect in the meantime. Thanks again for doing the testing and sharing the results.

EDIT: One more point to confirm if pango still has time to test in classic: will the enchanted item degrade after 7 hours of in-game time if the wait/rest window isn't used? E.g. if you just stand around in town for at least 7 in-game hours, run around the wilderness for at least 7 hours (without the item getting damaged in an enemy attack), etc.

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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by pango » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:26 am

I tried to more accurately measure time between effects reroll. That was not so simple, because it never happens if you stay awake. Like level ups, it happens after you loiter, rest, or fast travel.
But there's a way around that, I "probed" whether reroll was ready by periodically loitering for 0 hours. Using that trick, I measured the time between rerolls to be 6 hours 1 minute. Mmmh.

I now think that effects reroll happens like skill up checks: after loitering, resting or fast travel, when (at least) 6 hours have passed since the last time effects have been rerolled.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Interkarma » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:51 am

Again, all excellent information. Thank you, Pango! I'll move this to bug reports so I don't lose track of it.

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