Are Morrowind Style Weapons Better?

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daggerdude
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Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 2:22 pm

Are Morrowind Style Weapons Better?

Post by daggerdude » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:27 pm

To me, Morrowind is what daggerfall should/could have been. it took the same formula but learned from the mistakes of the past; the problems with battlespire and daggerfall is that it most certainly favored a battlemage, for instance. it solved other issues as well:

-Armor and stealth became linked, as they should.
-Armor required skill to use, as one would expect.
-Weapon choices actually mattered. reach, speed, and even damage amount for different swings.
-Combat became more interesting, but still true to it's GURPS system roots.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Combat
Morrowind combat is just all around better in every conceivable way.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Combat
daggerfall combat, on the other hand, is basically a matter of kiting an opponent and choosing the best direction that offers the best chance to hit; one would think combos would be effective, but in reality you want to stab

So specifically here are some longswords in the iron category from morrowind] and a commentary.
NAME CHOP SLASH THRUST SPEED REACH

Iron Saber 5−18, 4−16, 1−4 1.4 1.0
Clearly superior in its class; it's fast but trades off high chop and slash for a pathetic thrust.

Iron Broadsword 4−12, 2−12, 2−12 1.25 1.0
A "all rounder" type sword that is the slowest in its class, but easiest to use.

Iron Longsword 2−13, 1−18, 4−16 1.35 1.0
A sword that emphasizes thrusts and slashes with reasonable speed and balance.

Iron Claymore 1−24, 1−21, 1−14 1.25 1.0
a two handed sword that emphasizes chops and slashes but can also stab; trades defense for offense.

SO you can see these figures MATTER; people thought about them and their roleplay implications.

Daggerfall, on the other hand, has NO balancing on weapons:
a dagger is as fast as a warhammer;
a dagger does LESS thrust damage than a warhammer does.
a dagger has as much reach as a warhammer does.
a dagger is as durable as a warhammer is.
and I MAY be wrong, but a dagger is as durable as a warhammer is. I say that because it seems heavier weapons are more durable, and lighter ones like bows and daggers seem to break easy.

Either way, that's absurd. it's a lot of nonsensical, copy and paste D&D/GURPS thinking on weapons without thinking about how immersion works.
It's one thing when you're rolling dice, it's another where you are living in a world of magic before your eyes.

Here are some of my ideas IF we were to redo daggerfall weapons with morrowind type damage numbers.t:
Spoiler!

NAME Chop Slash Stab Speed Reach

Dagger 1-4 1-6 2-8 2 0.25 - a very fast but low reaching stabbing weapon.
Tanto 1-6 2-8 1-4 2 0.25 - a very fast but low reaching slashing weapon.
Shortsword 2-6 1-8 3-12 1.25 0.75 - a fast and short stabbing weapon.
Wakisashi 1-8 3-12 2-6 1.25 0.75 - a fast and short slashing weapon.
Broadsword 4-18 2-12 2-9 1.0 1.25- A average and long chopping weapon
Saber 2-12 4-18 2-9 1.25 1.0 - a quick and average slashing weapon.
Longsword 2-12 2-12 2-12 1.0 1.25 - A slow and long general weapon
Katana 3-15 3-15 2-9 1.25 1.0 -A fast slashing and chopping weapon
Claymore 6-24 4-18 3-12 0.75 2.0 -a slow and long chopping weapon.
Dai-Katana 4-18 6-24 3-12 1.0 1.75 -a average but long chopping weapon.
War-Axe 6-21 4-18 1-6 0.75 0.75- a slow and short chopping weapon.
Battle-Axe 9-27 6-21 2-8 0.75 1.50 - a slow and long chopping weapon.
Mace 9-21 3-12 1-6 0.50 0.50 - a very slow and very short chopping weapon.
Flail 9-27 6-15 3-12 0.75 1.00- a slow and average chopping weapon.
Warhammer 12-30 9-18 2-8 0.50 0.75- a slow and short chopping weapon.
Short Bow 0.0 0.0 2-15 1.5 n/a - a fast bow
Long Bow 0.0 0.0 6-21 1.0 n/a - a slow bow
Staff 1-8 1-8 1-8 2 1.5 - a fast and long general weapon.

Basically weapons are divided into their rough categories, and a max damage attack is usually emphasized at the expense of a low damage minimum. bigger weapons will always have a larger potential for minimum damage and max damage....

=daggers are agile weapons that require finesse. therefore either stabs or slashes are emphasized.
damage x2 against humanoids or animals regardless of attack, but armor class is doubled. harder to hit against high armor class enemies, but does more damage against common/weak foes.
daggers will have 2-8 and 1/2 that as 1-4 on it's weak attack.

=shortswords are like daggers but stronger and longer, at the expense of speed. Same bonus as daggers.
shortsword will have 3-12 and 1-6 on its weak attack.

=swords i'll call arming swords will have the most variety, either emphasizing a particular attack or handling characteristics. No bonuses or maluses, except the default weak against undead; except chopping attacks.
swords 4-18 on their good attack, or 2-9 on their weak attack.

=longsword/two handers are either chop or slash centric, all are long and hard hitting. does not allow a shield, trades offense for defense. same as swords.
twohanders are 6-24 or 3-12 .

=Axes are heavy hitting but short chopping weapons, but not as heavy as maces. terrible stabs, but better than maces.
Has a bonus vs armor 1/2 armor class when attacking; but also 1/2 as likely to hit unarmored enemies. Also does not suffer the undead malus, which is half damage.
Axes will do no 6-21 or 9-27

=Maces are the most damaging category, but the slowest and the shortest.
in addition to the axe bonuses also stuns based on weapon and crit strike /10 for a random amount of time.
Maces will deal 9-21 or 12-30 damage, but be very weak with stabs and slashes.

=Bows always deal stab damage and would have the same bonus(and malus) as daggers. because the damage is much higher, the bonus and crits will be devastating, making bows a hell of a lot more useful situationally.
Short Bow is 3-15 but faster, long bow is 6-18 but slower.

=Staff is in its own class, but is a all around ass kicker. fast, long, but little damage. same bonuses as maces.

To summarize:
Daggers and Shortswords will have a damage bonus against humanoids and animals but doubles armor class calculation.
Swords and two handers have no bonuses or maluses, except for the default undead; minus chops.
Axes halve armor and shields when calculating attack chance, but are weak against low armored opponents.
Maces halve armor and shield class, AND have a chance to stun based on weapon skill+critical strike/10.
Bows deal a damage bonus like daggers and shortswords.
Staffs are the same as maces.

ALSO, ARMOR.
Basically armor class subtracts from an opponent's chance to hit directly depending on the number. This is fine, but not great right now.
The current system which randomly decides which part of the body it hit on the character, 4/10 for hands and chest, 3/20 for head, 2/20 for greaves and pauldrons, and 1/20 for feet, MONSTERS could have this damage calculation based on their inventory. So instead of a general armor class for monsters, now their armor is specific like the player's is. For multiple pieces of armor, the best piece is used from their inventory on duplicates.
ALSO, armor would also reduce damage done directly. so a +21 piece of daedric would subtract 1/2 of itself (10) from physical damage. This ALSO applies to enemies now; so that fully armored knight or daedra lord you're facing will be a real pain in the ass now. And likewise, all the damage bonuses to weapons apply both to you and the enemies.
Maces will crush through your armor and stun you, arrows will do double damage as wells as all daggers and shortswords.

That only seems fair.

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Jay_H
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Re: Are Morrowind Style Weapons Better?

Post by Jay_H » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:11 pm

a dagger is as durable as a warhammer is.
and I MAY be wrong, but a dagger is as durable as a warhammer is. I say that because it seems heavier weapons are more durable, and lighter ones like bows and daggers seem to break easy.
This isn't the case. On my second Roguelike playthrough, the Ebony Dagger broke on the third video, which is about an hour of play time. I used a Dwarven Warhammer for about 4 hours of time with the previous character and barely lowered it to Almost New.
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Ommamar
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Re: Are Morrowind Style Weapons Better?

Post by Ommamar » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:22 am

What is interesting is I agree that Morrowind weapon design was more developed (How could it not be, as it had Daggerfall data to build off) but some how Daggerfall system seems more immersive. I know it is rolled based, that my appearance of a hit might not do any damage but there still seems to be a reaction to it. Be it a sound of a parry or movement backward of the target. In Morrowind particularly at the beginning of a character I always got that feeling of a hit occurring but since there was no reaction after the roll I felt cheated by the game.

daggerdude
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Are Morrowind Style Weapons Better?

Post by daggerdude » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:13 pm

Jay_H wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:11 pm
a dagger is as durable as a warhammer is.
and I MAY be wrong, but a dagger is as durable as a warhammer is. I say that because it seems heavier weapons are more durable, and lighter ones like bows and daggers seem to break easy.
This isn't the case. On my second Roguelike playthrough, the Ebony Dagger broke on the third video, which is about an hour of play time. I used a Dwarven Warhammer for about 4 hours of time with the previous character and barely lowered it to Almost New.
yeah; i wonder what the formula is?
Ommamar wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:22 am
What is interesting is I agree that Morrowind weapon design was more developed (How could it not be, as it had Daggerfall data to build off) but some how Daggerfall system seems more immersive. I know it is rolled based, that my appearance of a hit might not do any damage but there still seems to be a reaction to it. Be it a sound of a parry or movement backward of the target. In Morrowind particularly at the beginning of a character I always got that feeling of a hit occurring but since there was no reaction after the roll I felt cheated by the game.
Its true; the game is much more dark themed, and the reactions of monsters are much more powerful in combat. Morrowind is a bit cheesey in areas.

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