I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
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Arneb
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Arneb »

MrFlibble wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:03 pm
Werewolf wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:33 am increasingly simplified.
At some point I thought that maybe I should play Oblivion, but then
Image
Uhh... seriously?
It’s because it is rusty, if not it would be bladed :p

dutchovenfarts
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by dutchovenfarts »

Arneb wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:55 pm
MrFlibble wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:03 pm
Werewolf wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:33 am increasingly simplified.
At some point I thought that maybe I should play Oblivion, but then
Image
Uhh... seriously?
It’s because it is rusty, if not it would be bladed :p
i get what they were going for, but the devs were insistent on keeping skills named similarly from the previous titles. blunt wasn't the best skill descriptor for those hafted weapons. though arguing that blunt and axe shouldn't be combined ain't that great of a criticism.
the real issue is that the weapon types didn't have any meaningful difference - it wasn't until skyrim that it finally made some difference between weapon types.

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MrFlibble
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by MrFlibble »

dutchovenfarts wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:17 pm the real issue is that the weapon types didn't have any meaningful difference - it wasn't until skyrim that it finally made some difference between weapon types.
I don't know about Skyrim, but at least in Daggerfall, blunt weapons are the only ones fully efficient against undead creatures, and more durable for tasks like bashing doors.

There are also differences based on the manner a weapon is swung, like short blades supposedly deal more damage with stabbing/thrusting attacks, while long blades are better with slashing attacks. But I've never really mastered all the weapon swinging gestures in DF, especially the thrust. Morrowind made this all much simpler (arguably too simple, according to some).

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Werewolf
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Werewolf »

MrFlibble wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:29 pm
dutchovenfarts wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:17 pm the real issue is that the weapon types didn't have any meaningful difference - it wasn't until skyrim that it finally made some difference between weapon types.
I don't know about Skyrim, but at least in Daggerfall, blunt weapons are the only ones fully efficient against undead creatures, and more durable for tasks like bashing doors.

There are also differences based on the manner a weapon is swung, like short blades supposedly deal more damage with stabbing/thrusting attacks, while long blades are better with slashing attacks. But I've never really mastered all the weapon swinging gestures in DF, especially the thrust. Morrowind made this all much simpler (arguably too simple, according to some).
Morrowind’s combat wasn’t poor simply because you’d click to attack, enabling clicking to attack in Daggerfall Unity still makes the combat way better then Morrowind, Morrowind combat was just super sluggish

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MrFlibble
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by MrFlibble »

Werewolf wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:36 pm enabling clicking to attack in Daggerfall Unity still makes the combat way better then Morrowind
To begin with, DFU combat is still not exactly the same as vanilla combat, one way or another.

I believe the developers were tying to make combat in Morrowind more tactical while still keeping it real-time. I think it's pretty obvious how they were inspired by some classic RPGs here, e.g. it's no longer possible to flee from an encounter without any penalty, unlike Daggerfall or Arena. In many respects, Daggerfall's combat plays more like that in a contemporaneous FPS game.

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Arneb
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Arneb »

Werewolf wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:36 pm
Morrowind’s combat wasn’t poor simply because you’d click to attack, enabling clicking to attack in Daggerfall Unity still makes the combat way better then Morrowind, Morrowind combat was just super sluggish
I have to disagree, I kind of liked Morrowind handling of different weapons; the big difference between weapons was their damage range in different type of attacks, that then was influenced by how much the attack was “charged”.

To make an example: heavy two-handed swords had very low min and very high max damage on overhead chops, very low and high damage on horizontal swipes and very low and low damage on thrusts. Therefore, while fighting with a heavy two-handed blade, a character would more often than not use charged overhead chops and horizontal swipes.

Short swords had their best damage on thrusts, where min and max damage was very close, so the combat style with those was made of quick, repeated thrusts.

And so on:bows had a wide damage range, crossbows had a fixed damage.

I would like to see this kind of approach in Daggerfall, would help making weapons more different, and maybe making Speed less important in combat.

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MrFlibble
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by MrFlibble »

Arneb wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:18 am I have to disagree, I kind of liked Morrowind handling of different weapons; the big difference between weapons was their damage range in different type of attacks, that then was influenced by how much the attack was “charged”.

To make an example: heavy two-handed swords had very low min and very high max damage on overhead chops, very low and high damage on horizontal swipes and very low and low damage on thrusts. Therefore, while fighting with a heavy two-handed blade, a character would more often than not use charged overhead chops and horizontal swipes.
It is my understanding that Daggerfall's weapon damage also varies depending on the type of attack, but unlike Morrowind, the game does not make it obvious what damage each type of attack does for each weapon, and the mouse gesture weapon swinging system makes it not easy to perform some attacks like thrusts (at least, I was unable to master it).

The addition of charged strikes in Morrowind adds a dimension of course because such attack may be interrupted by the enemy's counter-attack. On the other hand, such strikes may be extra powerful and dispatch an enemy that is closing in on you before they're able to hit.

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Arneb
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Arneb »

MrFlibble wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:51 am It is my understanding that Daggerfall's weapon damage also varies depending on the type of attack, but unlike Morrowind, the game does not make it obvious what damage each type of attack does for each weapon, and the mouse gesture weapon swinging system makes it not easy to perform some attacks like thrusts (at least, I was unable to master it).
Difference between types of attack in Daggerfall are in fact quite well known: thrust attack has higher chance to hit but lower damage; horizontal swipe doesn't change chance to it nor damage; diagonal is harder to land, but do more damage; finally, vertical overhead is much harder to land but should do the most damage.

The thing is, there's no difference between type of weapons: a thrust will always be the easier to land, while the vertical slash will be the one that makes the most damage, no matter if you're using a Claymore, a Tanto or a Mace.

imsobadatnicknames
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by imsobadatnicknames »

dutchovenfarts wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:17 pm the real issue is that the weapon types didn't have any meaningful difference - it wasn't until skyrim that it finally made some difference between weapon types.
Weapon types actually had a huge difference in the way you'd use them in Morrowind tho.
Look, for example, at the difference between daggers and axes:
Daggers had relatively high min damage, but very little difference between min damage and max damage (damage ranges like 4-5, for example), which means that it probably wasn't worth fully charging your attacks for the extra damage, as two quick thrusts would probably do more damage that a fully charged one. On the other hand, Axes tend to have extremely low min damage, but very high max damage (damage ranges like 1-24 or 1-36) which made charging your attacks extremely important. When fully charging your attack makes your weapon do literally 36 times as much damage as it would otherwise, charging your attack can mean the difference between killing an enemy in 3 hits and killing it in 100, which means that trying to charge all your attacks is worth it even if it's much slower and might get interrupted by your enemy.
This results in the player having to use different weapons in completely different ways to be able to use them effectively. With a dagger, you'll probably do the most damage per second by repeatedly stabbing with it as quickly as you can without charging any of your stabs, while with an axe, you'll probably do the most damage per second with a few fully-charged chops.
Released mods: https://www.nexusmods.com/users/5141135 ... files&BH=0
Daggerfall isn't the only ridiculously intrincate fantasy world simulator with the initials DF that I make mods for: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177071.0

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Werewolf
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

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King of Worms wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:02 pm I agree. I waited since 1996 Daggerfall till 2002 for a Morrowind, and when it arrived, I was very confused and even disapointed (eventho MW is considered one of the best new age TES) - still - it did not feel nothing like Daggerfall to me, lots of things were removed, limited, streamlined... I finished it but it was a disapointment to me.
It seems that as Daggerfall Unity progresses, Morrowind looks worse. For years Daggerfall was this mythical game everyone talked about but few actually played with the clunkiness of the original DOS version but now Daggerfall Unity makes it easily accessible. Add the growing mod community that’s gradually helping the game reach the original vision and going from Daggerfall Unity to Morrowind is almost insulting. Even playing vanilla Daggerfall Unity and Morrowind side-by-side and the massive downgrade in ambition sticks out like a sore thumb. It’s laughable seeing Morrowind fans act like it was the height of ambition when the drop in ambition in Morrowind was far more severe then Skyrim. Skyrim was a simplified Morrowind, Morrowind strayed so far from Daggerfall it was essentially a soft reboot that abandoned the original vision

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