I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
Vorzak
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Vorzak »

Werewolf wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:09 pm It seems that as Daggerfall Unity progresses, Morrowind looks worse. For years Daggerfall was this mythical game everyone talked about but few actually played with the clunkiness of the original DOS version but now Daggerfall Unity makes it easily accessible. Add the growing mod community that’s gradually helping the game reach the original vision and going from Daggerfall Unity to Morrowind is almost insulting. Even playing vanilla Daggerfall Unity and Morrowind side-by-side and the massive downgrade in ambition sticks out like a sore thumb. It’s laughable seeing Morrowind fans act like it was the height of ambition when the drop in ambition in Morrowind was far more severe then Skyrim. Skyrim was a simplified Morrowind, Morrowind strayed so far from Daggerfall it was essentially a soft reboot that abandoned the original vision
Completely subjective, of course.

Again, IMO Daggerfall and Morrowind are great in their own unique ways. I think “ambition” is a little deceiving, it’s the feasibility of what can be achieved in a game and the end result is what matters ultimately. Lets not confuse/conflate ambition with attainability and outcome. Daggerfall never came close to achieving the dreams and ambitions the original devs had, DFU and its mods will never even scratch the surface of what they wanted in the game. Morrowind was much more grounded and came much closer to the goals and practicality its devs had of creating a more proper, balanced, complete game, despite its many bugs and faults. Their ambition and focus changed to something more practical and feasible overall for development. In the end, Morrowind added a tremendous amount to the world of Tamriel, near seamless unique open-world gameplay that made sense and fixed a lot of things myself and many others always hated in DF. Daggerfall, as ambitious the devs were and how awesome the released game became, it’s lacking so much, and was and still is a freaking mess with its ridiculous storyline, many half-baked and useless mechanics, an oversized empty generic world, barely any lore and culture, etc. - now tell me how this is better than Morrowind? I’m not saying one game is better than the other, but to me DFU even with mods doesn’t make Morrowind look worse, they are different games with different goals. There are some very good things Morrowind has that Daggerfall will never have and visa versa.

We have our preferences in what we enjoy and find valuable in games, some of us like the variety the TES series provided. Like I’ve said before in other threads, I’ve played Daggerfall the most by far out of all the TES games, the gameplay is addictive to me. Still, for the most part I’m satisfied with how they ended up developing Morrowind - for me, it didn’t have to be a “Daggerfall 2.0” that others demanded. If it ever became DF2.0, I highly doubt it would’ve ever had as meaningful and memorable a storyline, the insane depth of lore and culture or the incredible unique atmosphere and variety that t Morrowind has now.

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Werewolf
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Werewolf »

Vorzak wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:19 pm
Werewolf wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:09 pm It seems that as Daggerfall Unity progresses, Morrowind looks worse. For years Daggerfall was this mythical game everyone talked about but few actually played with the clunkiness of the original DOS version but now Daggerfall Unity makes it easily accessible. Add the growing mod community that’s gradually helping the game reach the original vision and going from Daggerfall Unity to Morrowind is almost insulting. Even playing vanilla Daggerfall Unity and Morrowind side-by-side and the massive downgrade in ambition sticks out like a sore thumb. It’s laughable seeing Morrowind fans act like it was the height of ambition when the drop in ambition in Morrowind was far more severe then Skyrim. Skyrim was a simplified Morrowind, Morrowind strayed so far from Daggerfall it was essentially a soft reboot that abandoned the original vision
Completely subjective, of course.

Again, IMO Daggerfall and Morrowind are great in their own unique ways. I think “ambition” is a little deceiving, it’s the feasibility of what can be achieved in a game and the end result is what matters ultimately. Lets not confuse/conflate ambition with attainability and outcome. Daggerfall never came close to achieving the dreams and ambitions the original devs had, DFU and its mods will never even scratch the surface of what they wanted in the game. Morrowind was much more grounded and came much closer to the goals and practicality its devs had of creating a more proper, balanced, complete game, despite its many bugs and faults. Their ambition and focus changed to something more practical and feasible overall for development. In the end, Morrowind added a tremendous amount to the world of Tamriel, near seamless unique open-world gameplay that made sense and fixed a lot of things myself and many others always hated in DF. Daggerfall, as ambitious the devs were and how awesome the released game became, it’s lacking so much, and was and still is a freaking mess with its ridiculous storyline, many half-baked and useless mechanics, an oversized empty generic world, barely any lore and culture, etc. - now tell me how this is better than Morrowind? I’m not saying one game is better than the other, but to me DFU even with mods doesn’t make Morrowind look worse, they are different games with different goals. There are some very good things Morrowind has that Daggerfall will never have and visa versa.

We have our preferences in what we enjoy and find valuable in games, some of us like the variety the TES series provided. Like I’ve said before in other threads, I’ve played Daggerfall the most by far out of all the TES games, the gameplay is addictive to me. Still, for the most part I’m satisfied with how they ended up developing Morrowind - for me, it didn’t have to be a “Daggerfall 2.0” that others demanded. If it ever became DF2.0, I highly doubt it would’ve ever had as meaningful and memorable a storyline, the insane depth of lore and culture or the incredible unique atmosphere and variety that t Morrowind has now.
Morrowind could have been the start of new direction for the series, a soft reboot that would be followed up by sequels that would build upon it. Unfortunately however the series got progressively dumbed-down after Morrowind.

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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

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Vorzak
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Vorzak »

@Werewolf I agree with that for the most part. Later games got worse in many aspects, that is disappointing. But I think Morrowind still stands on its own as a grand masterpiece, yet it is neither worse or better than Daggerfall - DFU with mods doesn’t change that. Each game simply had different direction and focus that allowed them to express unique and important aspects of game design, worldbuilding, storytelling, gameplay in a way that the other game failed to do.

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Werewolf
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Werewolf »

Daggerfall was so ambitious that even modded Daggerfall Unity doesn’t reach the original vision. Whereas Morrowind was clearly restrained, Daggerfall aimed for the stars. Daggerfall was so ahead of it’s time that there is still no game like it, a fantasy world the size of a real country that the player is only a small part of, with endless possibilities. Morrowind was simplified in many ways, because the developers of Morrowind took a conventional approach to an open-world RPG whereas Daggerfall has a design philosophy that even today is downright trippy in just how ambitious it is.

Like vanilla Daggerfall can already be trippy just because of how big it is. Realistic fantasy cities, the wilderness, the scale. Just having a game that tries to be an actual world is amazing. Morrowind is much more standard in design

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MrFlibble
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by MrFlibble »

Werewolf wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:53 am Morrowind was simplified in many ways, because the developers of Morrowind took a conventional approach to an open-world RPG
Werewolf wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:53 am Morrowind is much more standard in design
I've not had this impression from playing MW. I think that its design philosophy developed organically from DF through Redguard, along with the tech that was being used, and the solidification of TES lore. If you play Redguard, you'll notice how the devs made a lot more meaningful use of XnGine's 3D capabilities, much more so than in DF where they were still working with Arena era mentality in many aspects. But at the same time the scope of the game world became more compressed, which is I believe was because of tech limitations. Even though they switched to a different engine for MW, they were still working with the same approach as in RG, I suppose also in part of optimizing the game for a wide range of system configurations.

At the same time, RG proved that you don't necessarily need to have a game world of an epic size filled with generic stuff, when you can also make a smaller but more interesting and varied world that actually offers more rewarding exploration. I've only played the demo of RG but even it gives you a taste of more sight-seeing on an obviously small island than you would ever have walking through endless wastes of nearly completely empty wilderness in DF.

Also RG played a part in shaping the lore of MW as we know it, whereas in previous TES titles the provinces were mostly the same thing with just minor, cosmetic differences, while actual lore of places was largely confined to scattered tales in DF's books. Undoubtedly, this is because the lore was still evolving, as we all know that Arena was initially supposed to be a different game about party-based RPG gladiator battles, and switched gears as a last-minute change. Starting with RG, the provinces would become as different as possible. MW deliberately makes everything exotic, especially compared to DF's mostly generic European mediaeval fantasy setting, but I'd say that the most exotic stuff in MW is actually not Morrowind itself, but the descriptions of Valenwood from A Dance in the Fire.

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Werewolf
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Werewolf »

MrFlibble wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:23 pm
Werewolf wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:53 am Morrowind was simplified in many ways, because the developers of Morrowind took a conventional approach to an open-world RPG
Werewolf wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:53 am Morrowind is much more standard in design
I've not had this impression from playing MW. I think that its design philosophy developed organically from DF through Redguard, along with the tech that was being used, and the solidification of TES lore. If you play Redguard, you'll notice how the devs made a lot more meaningful use of XnGine's 3D capabilities, much more so than in DF where they were still working with Arena era mentality in many aspects. But at the same time the scope of the game world became more compressed, which is I believe was because of tech limitations. Even though they switched to a different engine for MW, they were still working with the same approach as in RG, I suppose also in part of optimizing the game for a wide range of system configurations.

At the same time, RG proved that you don't necessarily need to have a game world of an epic size filled with generic stuff, when you can also make a smaller but more interesting and varied world that actually offers more rewarding exploration. I've only played the demo of RG but even it gives you a taste of more sight-seeing on an obviously small island than you would ever have walking through endless wastes of nearly completely empty wilderness in DF.

Also RG played a part in shaping the lore of MW as we know it, whereas in previous TES titles the provinces were mostly the same thing with just minor, cosmetic differences, while actual lore of places was largely confined to scattered tales in DF's books. Undoubtedly, this is because the lore was still evolving, as we all know that Arena was initially supposed to be a different game about party-based RPG gladiator battles, and switched gears as a last-minute change. Starting with RG, the provinces would become as different as possible. MW deliberately makes everything exotic, especially compared to DF's mostly generic European mediaeval fantasy setting, but I'd say that the most exotic stuff in MW is actually not Morrowind itself, but the descriptions of Valenwood from A Dance in the Fire.
Morrowind definitely went abstract. I’m not sure whether it was a response to Daggerfall’s generic setting or trying to make the game more interesting. I think Morrowind being so different was it had a different dev team then Daggerfall

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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Jay_H »

You don't need to quote the whole reply when you make your reply :)

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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by jayhova »

Jay_H wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:57 pm You don't need to quote the whole reply when you make your reply :)
Sometimes you do. :lol:
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MrFlibble
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by MrFlibble »

Werewolf wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:37 pm Morrowind definitely went abstract.
I'm not sure what you mean by that? As far as locations go, Morrowind is infinitely more detailed than Daggerfall on every level especially concerning building interiors with loads of items and decorations, which to me seems like the exact opposite of "abstract".

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