I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

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Werewolf
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I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Werewolf »

Arena and Daggerfall are so different from Morrowind and afterwards that I almost consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series just in the same world. You know how there’s been the Dungeons and Dragons Gold Box video games and then later Baldur’s Gate? You know how both series take place in the same fantasy world-Forgotten Realms-but otherwise are different series with different devs and different design, etc? That pretty much applies to the first 2 Elder Scrolls games and the ones after. I mean, the Bethesda that made Morrowind was largely only the Bethesda of Arena and Daggerfall in name.

Morrowind was vastly different from the previous games, it almost felt like a soft reboot. Sure, it’s the same fantasy world but a fantasy world can have different series that take place within it that are radically different from each other, whether it’s a book, a movie, or a game. Elder Scrolls is essentially two different series in my view. You have Arena and Daggerfall, the original series, and then Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, the new series. Morrowind was essentially a soft reboot that went in a much more grounded in design and commercialized direction. The cut ambition in Morrowind from Daggerfall was greater then the cut ambition in Skyrim from Morrowind. Skyrim was a simplified Morrowind but Morrowind was so restrained and commercial compared to Daggerfall that they’re almost different genres. I like Morrowind but Daggerfall was so gloriously ambitious that it was in many ways incomplete.

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King of Worms
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by King of Worms »

I agree. I waited since 1996 Daggerfall till 2002 for a Morrowind, and when it arrived, I was very confused and even disapointed (eventho MW is considered one of the best new age TES) - still - it did not feel nothing like Daggerfall to me, lots of things were removed, limited, streamlined... I finished it but it was a disapointment to me.

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jayhova
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:23 am Arena and Daggerfall are so different from Morrowind and afterwards that I almost consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series just in the same world. You know how there’s been the Dungeons and Dragons Gold Box video games and then later Baldur’s Gate? You know how both series take place in the same fantasy world-Forgotten Realms-but otherwise are different series with different devs and different design, etc? That pretty much applies to the first 2 Elder Scrolls games and the ones after. I mean, the Bethesda that made Morrowind was largely only the Bethesda of Arena and Daggerfall in name.

Morrowind was vastly different from the previous games, it almost felt like a soft reboot. Sure, it’s the same fantasy world but a fantasy world can have different series that take place within it that are radically different from each other, whether it’s a book, a movie, or a game. Elder Scrolls is essentially two different series in my view. You have Arena and Daggerfall, the original series, and then Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, the new series. Morrowind was essentially a soft reboot that went in a much more grounded in design and commercialized direction. The cut ambition in Morrowind from Daggerfall was greater then the cut ambition in Skyrim from Morrowind. Skyrim was a simplified Morrowind but Morrowind was so restrained and commercial compared to Daggerfall that they’re almost different genres. I like Morrowind but Daggerfall was so gloriously ambitious that it was in many ways incomplete.
I'm gonna repeat what I said somewhere else in another post. That being said, I agree. Morrowind is very different. Tamriel Rebuilt grew out of what I feel was a general dissatisfaction with the product that Bethsoft eventually came out with. I have always wanted to see Morrowind redone in a Daggerfall-style world. What we get instead is Daggerfall redone in a Morrowind-style world.

The thing I would really like to see is a world with pseudo-realistic scale, like Daggerfall, with extrapolated Morrowind content. Imagine taking Morrowind and putting it on a ballon and inflating that ballon until Morrowind was in realistic scale.
jayhova wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:04 am It's important to bear in mind how the industry changed, what changed it, and why. People like Robert Altman were not gamers, they were business people looking to create a profitable business. Altman ousted the original owner of Bethsoft presumably to have better control. Julian Lefay, Vijay Lakshman, and others were out of the company by the time the company was reshaped into the company that created Morrowind. To a great extent, Daggerfall and Morrowind were created by two different companies with very different goals.
Below is an image of Balmora done on just such a scale. I discussed allof this about 5 years ago when Morrowind was a little bit less of a distant memory.

Image
Balmora. Aerial view
by AlexeyRudikov
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

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Werewolf
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Werewolf »

jayhova wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:06 pm
Werewolf wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:23 am Arena and Daggerfall are so different from Morrowind and afterwards that I almost consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series just in the same world. You know how there’s been the Dungeons and Dragons Gold Box video games and then later Baldur’s Gate? You know how both series take place in the same fantasy world-Forgotten Realms-but otherwise are different series with different devs and different design, etc? That pretty much applies to the first 2 Elder Scrolls games and the ones after. I mean, the Bethesda that made Morrowind was largely only the Bethesda of Arena and Daggerfall in name.

Morrowind was vastly different from the previous games, it almost felt like a soft reboot. Sure, it’s the same fantasy world but a fantasy world can have different series that take place within it that are radically different from each other, whether it’s a book, a movie, or a game. Elder Scrolls is essentially two different series in my view. You have Arena and Daggerfall, the original series, and then Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, the new series. Morrowind was essentially a soft reboot that went in a much more grounded in design and commercialized direction. The cut ambition in Morrowind from Daggerfall was greater then the cut ambition in Skyrim from Morrowind. Skyrim was a simplified Morrowind but Morrowind was so restrained and commercial compared to Daggerfall that they’re almost different genres. I like Morrowind but Daggerfall was so gloriously ambitious that it was in many ways incomplete.
I'm gonna repeat what I said somewhere else in another post. That being said, I agree. Morrowind is very different. Tamriel Rebuilt grew out of what I feel was a general dissatisfaction with the product that Bethsoft eventually came out with. I have always wanted to see Morrowind redone in a Daggerfall-style world. What we get instead is Daggerfall redone in a Morrowind-style world.

The thing I would really like to see is a world with pseudo-realistic scale, like Daggerfall, with extrapolated Morrowind content. Imagine taking Morrowind and putting it on a ballon and inflating that ballon until Morrowind was in realistic scale.
jayhova wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:04 am It's important to bear in mind how the industry changed, what changed it, and why. People like Robert Altman were not gamers, they were business people looking to create a profitable business. Altman ousted the original owner of Bethsoft presumably to have better control. Julian Lefay, Vijay Lakshman, and others were out of the company by the time the company was reshaped into the company that created Morrowind. To a great extent, Daggerfall and Morrowind were created by two different companies with very different goals.
Below is an image of Balmora done on just such a scale. I discussed allof this about 5 years ago when Morrowind was a little bit less of a distant memory.

Image
Balmora. Aerial view
by AlexeyRudikov
If Morrowind had a less condensed map then it’d be so much better. I really enjoyed the island of Solstheim but geez it is tiny. It would’ve been a lot better if it was realistically scaled and had a wilderness that was actually a wilderness. And don’t forget the main map, the countryside in GTA is less condensed then Morrowind. Morrowind didn’t even have to have actual cities and such. Can you imagine how much more epic Morrowind would’ve been had the map been 2-3 times as large? It could’ve been 3 times bigger and had just as much content. Imagine if it was 5 times bigger and had a decent walking speed and fast travel. Definitely seems that no fast travel and the slow walk speed were used to cover up how tiny it all is. Become a werewolf and leap across entire “cities” and you’ll realize how small Morrowind is, I haven’t gotten a draw distance mod but I’ve seen videos of such and they show that Morrowind is a theme park. With Daggerfall however if you increase the draw distance you’ll see the world continue to stretch past the horizon all around you, a truly large world.

Here’s a video of someone jumping across Morrowind with a realistic draw distance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=azLFDmdwvPU

It’s just a small island!

Now look at this Daggerfall video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8G393DdkE

Morrowind is just a small island while Daggerfall features massive, realistically scaled wilderness.

To me Daggerfall Unity adding QOL features and the modding community improving other things is really making Morrowind look worse. The better Daggerfall Unity gets, the more I realize just how commercialized Morrowind was

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jayhova
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:31 pm To me Daggerfall Unity adding QOL features and the modding community improving other things is really making Morrowind look worse. The better Daggerfall Unity gets, the more I realize just how commercialized Morrowind was
Yeah, again about 5 years ago I did this comparison.
A comparison of TES III Morrowind and Paris, Texas

I determined that Vvardenfell was somewhere like two orders of magnitude out of scale. That is to say, it was about 2 something miles across instead of 200 something.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

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numidium3rd
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by numidium3rd »

I think it's true that all the games after the first two are radically different but I disagree that their smaller scale makes them inherently worse. One of the main reasons I enjoy Morrowind so much is that its condensed, carefully hand-crafted world makes every location feel special. It gives me a sense of exploration that I don't get when wandering the wilderness or huge dungeons of Daggerfall.

I suppose I might have felt differently about this if Morrowind weren't my first Elder Scrolls. Seeing a beloved series start as a real-life scale adventure and then make such a drastic reduction in landmass might have felt like a betrayal in that case.

apprihensivsoul
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by apprihensivsoul »

I'd expand on the thread's title and say all the games are wildly different titles, and none of them have ever been intended to appeal to their previous audience. (With some grains of salt for Daggerfall and Skyrim.) But even those titles made substantial changes not just to mechanics or world design, but also to philosophy and overall approach to experience, so it's hard to figure out if Bethesda ever had "Brand building" as a goal.

That said, Morrowind and Daggerfall are my favorites by far, and the other three only ever seriously qualify as occasional pass-times for me. But I do agree that they're substantially different games. It's like saying I love Ultima 6 and Ultima Underworld, and I can like them both for a number of similar reasons, but they're not even close to the same game. (Though mechanically probably a closer comparison would be Might and Magic and Ultima Underworld, but you know what I mean.)

That said, Morrowind cannot be "replaced" by Daggerfall for me, because I enjoy it for a completely different set of reasons. One's a story-based immersive sim set in an entire island with one of the most thought invoking narratives ever written in gaming, as well as the most organic quest design I've ever experienced, whereas the other is the largest and most organic and massive "Be anyone" fantasy role playing game ever, where the game world itself is the story, and the actual Quests are just candy to living the life you wish to live. The two games simply cannot compete with each other because none of their qualities even fit into each other's goals. Which is how I like it, and I love that these two games are completely ageless whereas so many other games in this style (including in the same franchise) just fall into forgotten once-overs.

dutchovenfarts
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by dutchovenfarts »

Morrowind issued in the new age - the construction set is what made Morrowind what it is, I'd wager more time was spent in the construction set than played overall.

Battlespire and Redguard were the precursors to what Morrowind became. Morrowind felt more like one massive dungeon adventure akin to the previous titles.
Funny enough, I'd say Oblivion was trying to capture the Daggerfall feel, and kind of does superficially in mechanics.

Vorzak
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by Vorzak »

Agreeing with what others have said, I consider each game in the Elder Scrolls as completely different products in the same series, within the same setting and genre. They are unique and special in their own way, all providing a fairly different experience, playstyle and lore. Each game contains some things the others are lacking, because they have different goals.

To me, for every aspect that was changed or removed between Daggerfall to Morrowind, there were at least one or two that it added or improved upon, for a different experience. Daggerfall is a good generic fantasy sandbox, Morrowind is a great narrative and exploration game. Both have things the other is lacking, but it doesn’t make enough of a difference for me, I've enjoyed playing both. The annoying “which is better game?” question I just don’t care about as much these days (at least for the Elder Scrolls).

Anymore, it’s become tiring for me to compare Elder Scrolls games too much. Personally, I’d rather enjoy them for what they are. For someone who started with Arena and Daggerfall as a kid over two decades ago, since then I’ve spent thousands of hours in each of the Elder Scrolls games over the years and enjoyed them in their own way, Oblivion and Skyrim are no exception. I refuse to share about which game in the series I think is ‘better’ or is my ‘favorite,’ because it really doesn’t matter.

I’m aware of the many flaws these games have and the unfortunate changes to development philosophy in the industry over the years. But I think if I had let the flaws bother me to that extent, my overall experience of any Elder Scrolls game would have been brief and disappointing, since I’d be too dissatisfied with various parts that are missing or something another game in the series might have done ‘better.’ If I constantly focused so much and got hung up on one particular thing, like the size of the game world, and not appreciate the content within, with that mentality, for me these games would just not be worth playing at that point.

apprihensivsoul
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Re: I essentially consider Arena and Daggerfall to be a separate series from modern Elder Scrolls

Post by apprihensivsoul »

Yeah, if I have any complaints about the individual games (Oblivion and Arena especially,) it's not that they're "Different than the others", it's that they don't live up to their own goals.

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