Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
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Werewolf
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Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Werewolf »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=71dQ60Kg76M

This video does look very interesting but I am still super skeptical of Wayward Realms. Assuming this footage isn’t staged then Wayward Realms has potential but I still won’t be surprised if it never actually releases or ends up a buggy mess. I want that game to succeed and be the Daggerfall successor but it’s not even in full development yet. The video reveals that it’ll be as big as Daggerfall and the dungeons look like they’ll be big but far more logical. Everything sounds like the natural progression of Daggerfall but at the same time someone could put together a generator like that in a few months. I want to believe in Wayward Realms and I know that there is real passion behind it but I am still very skeptical. But I’d by lying if I wouldn’t say this video is fascinating

Vorzak
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Vorzak »

Looks like they copy-pasted some models of buildings and dungeon layouts right out of Daggerfall, with some very simple small 3D objects added in. Some of those dungeon rooms are exact duplicates of ones in Daggerfall. Nothing looks new, original, innovative or creative. Nothing looks like an improvement on what already exists in DFU. In fact, visually it looks almost identical to DFU with DREAM and Handpainted Models. Also, dungeon design generation in this video reminds me of Legend of Grimrock, grid-based dungeon crawler. This to me is just not impressive, especially for what the hype is trying to make it out to be. This video is just there for hype and trying to convince the fanbase that there’s progress. All this makes it feel kind of contrived and disingenuous.

I understand this is featuring the pre-alpha systems, but it makes me feel like they have little intention of expanding the concepts of Daggerfall very much or taking advantage of any latest game development technology. But even with that, it also proves to me that this Wayward Realms project will take decades, if it even evolves beyond the discord server and a dreaming fanbase. I wish it could've been more, but this type of massive project can't be run by a small, half-hearted team.

Edit: At 1:32 - 2:07 you only get 30 seconds of the so-called “dungeon generation,” and that may be nothing more than a pre-rendered animation of the concept. Literally the rest of the video just shows random models, textures and art that looks very generic. Nothing I haven’t seen on their Discord server for years. This video has the vibe that it was just staged, which is really too bad for the reputation and legacy of those devs.

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Werewolf
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Werewolf »

Vorzak wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:43 pm Looks like they copy-pasted some models of buildings and dungeon layouts right out of Daggerfall, with some very simple small 3D objects added in. Some of those dungeon rooms are exact duplicates of ones in Daggerfall. Nothing looks new, original, innovative or creative. Nothing looks like an improvement on what already exists in DFU. In fact, visually it looks almost identical to DFU with DREAM and Handpainted Models. Also, dungeon design generation in this video reminds me of Legend of Grimrock, grid-based dungeon crawler. This to me is just not impressive, especially for what the hype is trying to make it out to be. This video is just there for hype and trying to convince the fanbase that there’s progress. All this makes it feel kind of contrived and disingenuous.

I understand this is featuring the pre-alpha systems, but it makes me feel like they have little intention of expanding the concepts of Daggerfall very much or taking advantage of any latest game development technology. But even with that, it also proves to me that this Wayward Realms project will take decades, if it even evolves beyond the discord server and a dreaming fanbase. I wish it could've been more, but this type of massive project can't be run by a small, half-hearted team.

Edit: At 1:32 - 2:07 you only get 30 seconds of the so-called “dungeon generation,” and that may be nothing more than a pre-rendered animation of the concept. Literally the rest of the video just shows random models, textures and art that looks very generic. Nothing I haven’t seen on their Discord server for years. This video has the vibe that it was just staged, which is really too bad for the reputation and legacy of those devs.
To be fair Daggerfall has so many things that haven’t appeared in any RPG ever again that simply being a more fleshed-out and modern Daggerfall would be enough to make Wayward Realms be an amazing RPG. Daggerfall Unity, as great as it is, doesn’t 100% escape several off-putting things for modern players like not hitting an enemy despite swinging at them or the dungeons, or even the 2D sprites. But I’m worried this video is staged. The dungeon looks pretty impressive to me, if reminds me a lot more of an Arena dungeon then a Daggerfall dungeon in that it actually feels like a real place. But hopefully it isn’t staged.

Vorzak
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Vorzak »

Werewolf wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:51 pm To be fair Daggerfall has so many things that haven’t appeared in any RPG ever again that simply being a more fleshed-out and modern Daggerfall would be enough to make Wayward Realms be an amazing RPG. Daggerfall Unity, as great as it is, doesn’t 100% escape several off-putting things for modern players like not hitting an enemy despite swinging at them or the dungeons, or even the 2D sprites. But I’m worried this video is staged. The dungeon looks pretty impressive to me, if reminds me a lot more of an Arena dungeon then a Daggerfall dungeon in that it actually feels like a real place. But hopefully it isn’t staged.
But they haven’t featured anything new. We don’t see any mechanics at all, we don’t see better graphics and models than DREAM and DFU, we don’t see dungeons that look any different than Arena/Daggerfall, Legend of Grimrock, Delver, etc. The video shows almost nothing, no progress whatsoever, it feels fake. To add, I think Arena’s dungeons look far better than what is shown in this video.

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Sluggy
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Sluggy »

I don't think this looks fake or staged at all but at the same time, it certainly doesn't look impressive. From my own experience what we saw in that video appears to be something one or two dedicated people could probably cobble together in a weekend or so for a gamejam session. Could be the start of something far far down the road but it absolutely didn't warrant making a video of that nature. And as others have stated, right now there doesn't seem to be any unique selling point other than "it's daggerfall but with modern art assets". It's honestly just too early to know or even care.

Falci
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Falci »

I liked the video, even if it's nothing revolutionary.

I genuinely believe that No Man's Sky is where they should be looking if they want to make a modern Daggerfall-like game.

Which also means that, if they want to make the game interesting in the long run, they'll have to add A LOT of hand made content to go with all that procedural generation.

It can be done, but it won't be easy.

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Werewolf
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Werewolf »

Falci wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:56 am I liked the video, even if it's nothing revolutionary.

I genuinely believe that No Man's Sky is where they should be looking if they want to make a modern Daggerfall-like game.

Which also means that, if they want to make the game interesting in the long run, they'll have to add A LOT of hand made content to go with all that procedural generation.

It can be done, but it won't be easy.
It looks like the devs are planning to have most dungeons be the same every playthrough but there will be the ability for the game to change dungeons in real time, according to a comment. Not sure what they mean specifically by it got me thinking about AI. With AI getting better and better it probably is already technically possible to make an AI tailored to produce procedural content in a game, it’s just that no game has that. Imagine an AI that can make hundreds of unique towns and dungeons. Obviously towns and dungeons as distinctive as, say, Skyrim would require a human but I think it’s totally possible an AI could produce hundreds of towns and such and make each one have something unique about it but not immediately noticeable. It seems to me that Wayward Realms will just have an advanced procedural generation system but even if it just ends up as HD Daggerfall I’d still root for it because perhaps a sequel and some financial backing could implement something like an AI. Julian is one of the most likely people I’d see willing to do something like that that hasn’t been done before. If someone would bring up the AI idea to him on his forums or whatever I wonder what he’d say.

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Sluggy
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Sluggy »

Werewolf wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:32 pm It looks like the devs are planning to have most dungeons be the same every playthrough but there will be the ability for the game to change dungeons in real time, according to a comment. Not sure what they mean specifically by it got me thinking about AI. With AI getting better and better it probably is already technically possible to make an AI tailored to produce procedural content in a game, it’s just that no game has that. Imagine an AI that can make hundreds of unique towns and dungeons. Obviously towns and dungeons as distinctive as, say, Skyrim would require a human but I think it’s totally possible an AI could produce hundreds of towns and such and make each one have something unique about it but not immediately noticeable. It seems to me that Wayward Realms will just have an advanced procedural generation system but even if it just ends up as HD Daggerfall I’d still root for it because perhaps a sequel and some financial backing could implement something like an AI. Julian is one of the most likely people I’d see willing to do something like that that hasn’t been done before. If someone would bring up the AI idea to him on his forums or whatever I wonder what he’d say.
I know they said something about 'building dungeons like a person' but literally there is no evidence of that in the video whatsoever. It looks like a bog-standard random layout generator for interior spaces. For the exterior buildings they are using parametric geometry as well which is something that can be purchased and used right off the shelf. Even the terrain generator looks absolutely by-the-book.

As for AI: many larger companies already use it to help with mundane and highly repetitive tasks. As for runtime setup, the only projects I know of that ever attempted that are ones I've done myself as a hobby and I'll say this... without a TON of data and a hell of a lot of training, the difference between completely random and what you will get is indistinguishable. It's really not that AI has gotten much better. It's just that big companies have more data sets and raw storage space and computing power to sift through those datasets. In this case unless the game was going to be online and linked up to a massive server I doubt it would get particularly good results from AI-generate layouts and even then... controlling to ensure proper generation is much harder than simply using a procedural system. Not impossible but... probably not worth it without MASSIVE investment.

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Werewolf
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Werewolf »

Sluggy wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:40 pm
Werewolf wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:32 pm It looks like the devs are planning to have most dungeons be the same every playthrough but there will be the ability for the game to change dungeons in real time, according to a comment. Not sure what they mean specifically by it got me thinking about AI. With AI getting better and better it probably is already technically possible to make an AI tailored to produce procedural content in a game, it’s just that no game has that. Imagine an AI that can make hundreds of unique towns and dungeons. Obviously towns and dungeons as distinctive as, say, Skyrim would require a human but I think it’s totally possible an AI could produce hundreds of towns and such and make each one have something unique about it but not immediately noticeable. It seems to me that Wayward Realms will just have an advanced procedural generation system but even if it just ends up as HD Daggerfall I’d still root for it because perhaps a sequel and some financial backing could implement something like an AI. Julian is one of the most likely people I’d see willing to do something like that that hasn’t been done before. If someone would bring up the AI idea to him on his forums or whatever I wonder what he’d say.
I know they said something about 'building dungeons like a person' but literally there is no evidence of that in the video whatsoever. It looks like a bog-standard random layout generator for interior spaces. For the exterior buildings they are using parametric geometry as well which is something that can be purchased and used right off the shelf. Even the terrain generator looks absolutely by-the-book.

As for AI: many larger companies already use it to help with mundane and highly repetitive tasks. As for runtime setup, the only projects I know of that ever attempted that are ones I've done myself as a hobby and I'll say this... without a TON of data and a hell of a lot of training, the difference between completely random and what you will get is indistinguishable. It's really not that AI has gotten much better. It's just that big companies have more data sets and raw storage space and computing power to sift through those datasets. In this case unless the game was going to be online and linked up to a massive server I doubt it would get particularly good results from AI-generate layouts and even then... controlling to ensure proper generation is much harder than simply using a procedural system. Not impossible but... probably not worth it without MASSIVE investment.
A game with a full development team could use an AI (powered on a computer farm) to make the game’s procedural generation be very advanced and make hundreds or thousands of towns and dungeons all be far more detailed then other games. Wayward Realms isn’t even in full development yet but if it gets investors or another game tries the massive procedurally generated fantasy world concept then it would be possible to develop an AI if they would be willing to get a computer farm or specialty computer used for AI. I think we don’t see modern games use advanced AI because the gaming industry has become extremely standardized with no room for new concepts. Seeing how advanced some AI is now at making artwork it has to be possible to make an AI specifically for a specific video game or game type

Wyaldfire
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Re: Wayward Realms Devlog 1: World Generation Systems

Post by Wyaldfire »

Hey guys, community manager for OnceLost Games here. We haven't had much of a presence in these forums but DFU is a project that is very near and dear to our hearts.
I was reading through your concerns, which are perfectly valid, and thought I'd hop in to address some of the issues.
I do want to say that none of the systems in the video were faked. That is our genuine progress, at least from a couple months back. The systems are still fairly primitive but they will continue to be iterated upon and improved, adding more variety and definition. For instance, we didn't showcase multiple floors or destructible doors, but those do already exist.
We are walking a fine line between our buildings/dungeons staying reminiscent of Daggerfall and looking like a more modern game. We obviously haven't hit the right mark yet, but we'll get there in time.
The goal has and always will be Daggerfall but created with modern tools.
Finally, I know progress seems slow, but it has been steady. Our team is working on a voluntary basis at the moment but we have been in active talks with publishers. We are not in a rush to get signed on though, as we want to take advantage of this time to lay a solid groundwork for our systems.
If you guys have any other concerns or questions, feel free to ask. We try to be as open as possible about the game and our progress.

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