Map size and the Future of RPGs

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
Post Reply
User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by jayhova »

So undoubtedly the Daggerfall world-space is very large. The fundamental question comes up "Does it need to be?". I would say the question about that question is "does it need to be for what?". 'What?' indeed.

I have, in the past, touched on the subject of RPGs and CRPGs. Let's for a second look at the classic RPG D&D. One of the aspects of D&D are the various campaign settings/worlds. Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Ebberon, Dark Sun, Dragon Lance, etc. Each of these settings is a world unto itself. Tamriel is no different. So let me come back to 'Do we really need...' The answer is 'It depends.'. What are you trying to do? Are you trying to create a game setting or a game?

Game settings are not games. If you buy the rule books for D&D there is no game in there. If you then buy a campaign setting there is still no game. Just buying these things means you will have spent maybe $100 and still not have a game. If this is confusing let me clarify. If you buy a player's handbook you get rules for creating characters, equipping those characters, and what your characters can and can't do. On the other hand, if you buy a Dungeon master's guide, you get instructions on how to run a game and how to construct a game. If you buy a monster manual you get stats and descriptions for creatures to populate your games with. What you don't get is an actual game. The actual game is called an adventure module. However, these modules would not exist without a setting. Now you could just ignore the setting or just assume the setting is understood. However, in traditional pencil and paper RPGs there is generally a campaign setting. This is so your group is not just a collection of murder hobos but is a party of adventures that have a home to return to.

Games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are complete. The campaign world is skin-tight with no room to add any more material. This is because there was never any consideration that the player would play anything else in the setting but the game. Any expansions feel very crammed in to a space never meant to accommodate them.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

User avatar
DunnyOfPenwick
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:58 am
Location: Southeast US

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by DunnyOfPenwick »

Games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are complete. The campaign world is skin-tight with no room to add any more material.
An art analogy I've used before: later games were like the Mona Lisa, tidy and complete with very little space left for enhancement. Daggerfall is like an unfinished Sistine Chapel with lots of empty spaces on the wall.

At the present time there are a limited number of modders and a limited toolset. If the tools improve that will likely attract more modders, and they will be thankful for all that space on the map.

User avatar
Werewolf
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by Werewolf »

Daggerfall is like converting a Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting to a game. Other RPGs of the time were DND campaigns as video games, while Daggerfall was a SETTING as a video game. Instead of an adventure in the Forgotten Realms like the Gold Box DND video games, Daggerfall instead laid out the DND-like setting Illiac Bay for players to have their own adventures in. Of course the main quest in Daggerfall can be seen as being a DND campaign but Daggerfall allows you to completely ignore it and go on your own adventures. Imagine if instead of the Gold Box games having just the main story the player is guided to follow and a few side quests, imagine them having endless randomly generated side quests from NPCs, and hundreds/thousands of dungeons created with a procedural generator that have nothing to do with the main quest. If they had those elements then they would have similarities to Daggerfall whilst still being the turn-based, party-based RPGs they already are.

Nearly every RPG is a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. Daggerfall however is a Dungeons and Dragons campaign SETTING, with also a campaign you can play through or completely ignore (the main quest.) Future Elder Scrolls games became DND campaigns while Daggerfall was a DND setting. While also being open world future Elder Scrolls games were campaigns rather then settings because they took place in tiny, handcrafted worlds where the player character became much more involved in the main storyline, whereas with Daggerfall totally ignoring the main quest was perfectly logical role-playing as you were just another person who was . Future games turned you into a “chosen one” and that fundamentally made you involved with the main quest.

Vorzak
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:30 pm

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by Vorzak »

Here’s an interesting video discussing large procedural generated worlds vs smaller handcrafted worlds. It presents things in a perspective I’ve never thought of, to that depth at least. Both methods of world creation have their benefits along with many limitations and flaws that one method or the other may be ideal depending on what type of game and world is intended to be made.


User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by jayhova »

Vorzak wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:33 pm Here’s an interesting video discussing large procedural-generated worlds vs smaller handcrafted worlds.
This is a video that certainly influenced me to start this thread.
Werewolf wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:35 pm Daggerfall is like converting a Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting to a game.
This was very certainly the intent of the developers. Unfortunately, the ability to continuously develop a thing did not really exist at the time. Daggerfall would have been very different with 10 years of continuous updates.
DunnyOfPenwick wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:08 pm
Games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are complete. The campaign world is skin-tight with no room to add any more material.
An art analogy I've used before: later games were like the Mona Lisa, tidy and complete with very little space left for enhancement. Daggerfall is like an unfinished Sistine Chapel with lots of empty spaces on the wall.

At the present time there are a limited number of modders and a limited toolset. If the tools improve that will likely attract more modders, and they will be thankful for all that space on the map.
I foresee campaign settings becoming the new thing. When a world gets big enough you can get a sense of owning a piece of it. You no longer feel like you are in a contrived story you are somewhat ordinary. Maybe not too ordinary, but not the most important person in a world of a few hundred people. The world is huge and you are just one guy.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

User avatar
Werewolf
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by Werewolf »

Daggerfall would’ve been great as “games as a service” like some modern games. Modern Bethesda however just does DLCs for a year or two on a game before moving onto making another game but there are examples of games that get updated and expanded upon for 5+ years. If someone would make a Daggerfall-like game then using a games-as-a-service model would actually work really well. Daggerfall’s world is so big that instead of adding new landmass you instead put new dungeons, landscapes, random events, etc. into it, and the same would apply to a modern Daggerfall-like game. Start by implementing all the towns and some dungeons, and over time add new dungeons in the wilderness, add new factions to join, new quests, enemies, weapons, armor, lycanthropes, spells, etc. Maybe have some buildings in various towns be empty and serve as placeholders for future new factions/guilds to join.

It’s no secret that Daggerfall was essentially incomplete. Imagine instead of Bethesda making the poorly-selling spinoffs like Battlespire and Redguard they would’ve released expansions for Daggerfall. Expansions that would’ve added new dungeons, a better countryside, new spells, enemies, etc. Unfortunately these days games-as-a-service model is often used to put out incomplete games and fix them over time but Daggerfall would’ve benefited from that. Even potential future Daggerfall-like games would benefit with that model as you could continually improve the countryside and add tons of new dungeon types and spells and enemies and just make the world more distinctive, dense, and better overall

User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:52 pm Daggerfall would’ve been great as “games as a service” like some modern games.
I absolutely detest that model. I prefer the DCS world model of Eagle Dynamics. The framework is given away and they sell content. The game is yours and you own it. Period. Full stop. However, you are entitled to update the engine as long as they make it. Occasionally they will update older games. They provide an upgrade path for this.

For those who don't know, DCS is a Flight/Combat simulator. You can add various things to DCS like new planes, ships, equipment, maps, and whole campaigns. These things can be in the same or different eras.

You can buy a game like "Flaming cliffs" and because the game is compatible with DCS you can then fly the aircraft included in that game in DCS against other players online or in a completely different scenario. You can for instance reenact the Pearl Harbor attack but with a carrier battle group as in the movie "Final Countdown".

Your game from 2008 continues to run on a modern and optimized engine that is continuously updated. The upshot of all this is you own the game and the game is a module in a larger game world. This allows the company to focus on content and allows other companies and end users to also create content.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

User avatar
Werewolf
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by Werewolf »

I mean games as service as years of DLC and expansion packs lol, I didn’t mean having to be online but I should’ve specified that. Daggerfall was before you had games that had DLC for 5+ years but Bethesda still could’ve released a couple expansion packs instead of Battlespire and Redguard, in fact those probably would’ve done better then those two poorly-selling spin-offs as Daggerfall sold pretty good for its time. Had Daggerfall received a couple expansions then with both expansions it probably would’ve resembled modded Daggerfall Unity in some ways, probably having roads, better countryside terrain, etc. But at the same time it could’ve had things that the current mods don’t have, like new dungeons. I really like the enemy expansion mod partly because it’s something that Bethesda would’ve likely done had they released expansions to Daggerfall.

User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Map size and the Future of RPGs

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:15 am Had Daggerfall received a couple of expansions then with both expansions it probably would’ve resembled modded Daggerfall Unity in some ways, probably having roads, better countryside terrain, etc.
I totally agree. The major cost is born by those buying the expansions when they come out. Later customers get a package deal with the deluxe version.

Software as a service is a model aimed at business. The intent is to eliminate the upgrade cycle costs and replace it with a single subscription cost that stays predictable. DLC is not the same. I also don't like the DLC model. It smacks of the hideous pay-to-win schemes of things like Raid Shadow Legends. I want the full thing and I want it to improve as time goes on.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

Post Reply