Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Talk about the mods you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
User avatar
Werewolf
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by Werewolf »

jayhova wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:09 am
nicksta1310 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:18 am That would make almost any game in an immersive sim environment better. Unfortunately, it seems to be very difficult to implement properly, even for AAA developers. They can create the appearance of commerce, but the interactions are mostly smoke and mirrors. The only game that comes close to the real thing in my experience is Helium Rain.
A food economy would be a good place to start. I have long said that the cities lacking river valleys has been a source of a lack of verisimilitude. Ancient cites grew to the size of their available food & water and no more. Cites must be low-lying enough to have wells or be fed by some other source of fresh water. Huge ancient cities such as Rome built aqueducts to supply fresh water by the millions of gallons a day. Before this could be done there had to be water enough for a settlement to be big enough to conceive of creating such a huge undertaking. This is why large cities exist almost exclusively in or around large river valleys. A small town might exist around a mine but it is the mine that pays for the water to be brought in by mule train. A bath in such a place might be an extraordinary luxury.
If someone would ever make a viable fantasy world generator (Daggerfall or not) then the generator using geography to determine town sizes would be ideal. For example it would be more likely for cities to be near rivers and areas with lots of natural resources whereas small towns would be in more sparse areas. Since Daggerfall’s world already is an uncondensed representation of a fantasy land, the next step for either mods or spiritual successors would be to have cuties and gowns be more logically placed

User avatar
Werewolf
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by Werewolf »

jayhova wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:09 am
nicksta1310 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:18 am That would make almost any game in an immersive sim environment better. Unfortunately, it seems to be very difficult to implement properly, even for AAA developers. They can create the appearance of commerce, but the interactions are mostly smoke and mirrors. The only game that comes close to the real thing in my experience is Helium Rain.
A food economy would be a good place to start. I have long said that the cities lacking river valleys has been a source of a lack of verisimilitude. Ancient cites grew to the size of their available food & water and no more. Cites must be low-lying enough to have wells or be fed by some other source of fresh water. Huge ancient cities such as Rome built aqueducts to supply fresh water by the millions of gallons a day. Before this could be done there had to be water enough for a settlement to be big enough to conceive of creating such a huge undertaking. This is why large cities exist almost exclusively in or around large river valleys. A small town might exist around a mine but it is the mine that pays for the water to be brought in by mule train. A bath in such a place might be an extraordinary luxury.
If someone would ever make a viable fantasy world generator (Daggerfall or not) then the generator using geography to determine town sizes would be ideal. For example it would be more likely for cities to be near rivers and areas with lots of natural resources whereas small towns would be in more sparse areas. Since Daggerfall’s world already is an uncondensed representation of a fantasy land, the next step for either mods or spiritual successors would be to have cuties and gowns be more logically placed

User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:20 am If someone would ever make a viable fantasy world generator (Daggerfall or not) then the generator using geography to determine town sizes would be ideal. For example, it would be more likely for cities to be near rivers and areas with lots of natural resources whereas small towns would be in more sparse areas. Since Daggerfall’s world already is an uncondensed representation of a fantasy land, the next step for either mods or spiritual successors would be to have cuties and gowns be more logically placed
Dwarf fortress does quite a bit of this. Hey if there was a Dwarf Fortress Unity it would be called DFU.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

User avatar
Werewolf
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by Werewolf »

jayhova wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:00 am
Werewolf wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:20 am If someone would ever make a viable fantasy world generator (Daggerfall or not) then the generator using geography to determine town sizes would be ideal. For example, it would be more likely for cities to be near rivers and areas with lots of natural resources whereas small towns would be in more sparse areas. Since Daggerfall’s world already is an uncondensed representation of a fantasy land, the next step for either mods or spiritual successors would be to have cuties and gowns be more logically placed
Dwarf fortress does quite a bit of this. Hey if there was a Dwarf Fortress Unity it would be called DFU.
Wouldn’t have to be as detailed and in-depth as Dwarf Fortress, would just need things like cities near rivers and more towns in areas that logically would have more resources and food sources

nicksta1310
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:43 am
Location: Australia

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by nicksta1310 »

jayhova wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:09 am I have long said that the cities lacking river valleys has been a source of a lack of verisimilitude. Ancient cites grew to the size of their available food & water and no more. Cites must be low-lying enough to have wells or be fed by some other source of fresh water.
There's an optional feature in the Basic Roads mod to add rivers and streams, but I think it's experimental at the moment.

Regnier
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:26 am

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by Regnier »

Moonlight

User avatar
NikitaTheTanner
Posts: 366
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:57 pm

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

As much as I would love a more diverse world with more unique/somewhat unique locations, I think the main issue at the moment is that most characters feel very similar, no matter what build you take. I would love to have more unique classes, mechanics and roleplay options. I think it can only be achieved via new quests and gameplay mechanics to make it possible.

Would be so cool if you could:
1) Play as a courtier, infiltrating courts and getting to know the politics of the land, swooning ladies, marrying into power, blackmailing other nobles, gaining new titles, lands, armies and spies
2) Play as a soldier in a way similar to Mount & Blade, fighting battles, gaining ranks and medals, potentially gaining a title and land that way, with a castle to defend
3) Play as a wizard researcher, studying magical anomalies, collecting artifacts, writing research papers, starting your own laboratory for further experiments
4) Play as a cleric and preacher, spreading the word about your faith throughout the region, helping the needy, converting the unbelievers, building new temples, recovering lost relics
5) Play as a barbarian, crushing enemies and gaining allies, building up your horde, fortifying your stronghold, working as a mercenary for local rulers, slaying unique mighty beasts
6) Play as a rogue, robbing travelers on the road, breaking into castle vaults, magic vaults, banks, coordinating the work of thieves and getting tribute from them, bribing the guards, etc.
7) Play as a craftsmen, improve your proficiencies, look for forgotten recipes, acquire rare materials, craft better and better items, set up shop, be asked to create unique items for powerful people, requiring you to work hard on them
8) Play as a bard, perform in taverns, gain reputation, perform in front of the nobles, gather legends, have unique adventures, seduce whoever you can, and see where the road leads you - to glory or death

Just some ideas, and some of it is already kinda possible with guilds, but you never feel in control of your character - you're doing you're asked to do. If you could set your own goals and have ways to achieve them, and some in game factors to try to prevent you - that would be epic and would bring Daggerfall to a new level. Multiplayer, or at least, some NPC companion system with basic relationship dynamics would be great too, so you can have friends adventuring with you!

From simple gameplay mechanics, I also wouldn't mind Boss Enemies and Unique Enchanted items from them, similar to how Fallout 4 has Legendary enemies that always drop "magical" loot, I think it would bring a bit more variety to encounters.

11th_defender
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:01 pm

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by 11th_defender »

Werewolf wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:54 am
C0rg1 wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:23 amMultiplayer.
Daggerfall is so big that if there was multiplayer, and there would be 5090 players in the server all on at once, and each player would be in a separate town, then no player would even be in the same town, as Daggerfall apparently has 5090 towns.

A multiplayer Daggerfall could have 50,000 players on at once in a single server and if each player was evenly spread apart then there would still be only one player every 3.2 square kilometers (or 1.2 square miles.) With 100,000 players on at once there would be a player every 0.6 square mile, which still means a player could be in a random inn in the town you’re in and you won’t see them. Not to mention at least a couple thousand of those players would be in a dungeon. That is how big Daggerfall is. If there was a multiplayer version then it wouldn’t need servers, it could theoretically have one server with a super high capacity, If there would be 200,000 players on at once and nobody is in a dungeon, then that’s a player every 0.3 square mile. So you’d definitely come across players but even then you could still have to look for another player if you’re in a large city.
The assumption that players would be spread out evenly is kind of ridiculous. The main 3 cities and regions would have a lot of people in them. There is also a lot of empty space which wouldn't be populated by people at all. The mountain and desert areas would probably be very sparsely populated. It's probably best to have it highlighted on the map when someone is nearby so the scenario of not seeing someone who is very closeby doesn't occur.

All4
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:25 pm

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by All4 »

11th_defender wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:16 pm
Werewolf wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:54 am
C0rg1 wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:23 amMultiplayer.
Daggerfall is so big that if there was multiplayer, and there would be 5090 players in the server all on at once, and each player would be in a separate town, then no player would even be in the same town, as Daggerfall apparently has 5090 towns.

A multiplayer Daggerfall could have 50,000 players on at once in a single server and if each player was evenly spread apart then there would still be only one player every 3.2 square kilometers (or 1.2 square miles.) With 100,000 players on at once there would be a player every 0.6 square mile, which still means a player could be in a random inn in the town you’re in and you won’t see them. Not to mention at least a couple thousand of those players would be in a dungeon. That is how big Daggerfall is. If there was a multiplayer version then it wouldn’t need servers, it could theoretically have one server with a super high capacity, If there would be 200,000 players on at once and nobody is in a dungeon, then that’s a player every 0.3 square mile. So you’d definitely come across players but even then you could still have to look for another player if you’re in a large city.
The assumption that players would be spread out evenly is kind of ridiculous. The main 3 cities and regions would have a lot of people in them. There is also a lot of empty space which wouldn't be populated by people at all. The mountain and desert areas would probably be very sparsely populated. It's probably best to have it highlighted on the map when someone is nearby so the scenario of not seeing someone who is very closeby doesn't occur.
Yeah even in singleplayer people end up using the same towns because of guildhalls. It was kind of weird at first to read about other people randomly choosing the same town as I did for their base of operations out of thoudands(Aldingwall or Vantown sound familiar?), but it makes perfect sense, we both asked about the nearest mages guild.

And I was thinking about the best way to handle time syncing and I think it is to not advance time when someone rests, travels, or goes to prison. It would make quests easier, because you can rest as much as you want without hitting the time limit, and not being able to loiter until a shop opens would be annoying, but those are the only downsides I see. Compared to the impossible task of somehow syncing the time for everyone.

11th_defender
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:01 pm

Re: Name one thing that would make Daggerfall’s world better

Post by 11th_defender »

All4 wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2023 1:46 pm
11th_defender wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:16 pm
Werewolf wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:54 am

Daggerfall is so big that if there was multiplayer, and there would be 5090 players in the server all on at once, and each player would be in a separate town, then no player would even be in the same town, as Daggerfall apparently has 5090 towns.

A multiplayer Daggerfall could have 50,000 players on at once in a single server and if each player was evenly spread apart then there would still be only one player every 3.2 square kilometers (or 1.2 square miles.) With 100,000 players on at once there would be a player every 0.6 square mile, which still means a player could be in a random inn in the town you’re in and you won’t see them. Not to mention at least a couple thousand of those players would be in a dungeon. That is how big Daggerfall is. If there was a multiplayer version then it wouldn’t need servers, it could theoretically have one server with a super high capacity, If there would be 200,000 players on at once and nobody is in a dungeon, then that’s a player every 0.3 square mile. So you’d definitely come across players but even then you could still have to look for another player if you’re in a large city.
The assumption that players would be spread out evenly is kind of ridiculous. The main 3 cities and regions would have a lot of people in them. There is also a lot of empty space which wouldn't be populated by people at all. The mountain and desert areas would probably be very sparsely populated. It's probably best to have it highlighted on the map when someone is nearby so the scenario of not seeing someone who is very closeby doesn't occur.
Yeah even in singleplayer people end up using the same towns because of guildhalls. It was kind of weird at first to read about other people randomly choosing the same town as I did for their base of operations out of thoudands(Aldingwall or Vantown sound familiar?), but it makes perfect sense, we both asked about the nearest mages guild.

And I was thinking about the best way to handle time syncing and I think it is to not advance time when someone rests, travels, or goes to prison. It would make quests easier, because you can rest as much as you want without hitting the time limit, and not being able to loiter until a shop opens would be annoying, but those are the only downsides I see. Compared to the impossible task of somehow syncing the time for everyone.
1. I was thinking you could have resting just be a fade to black with no time changes. In this case time would just be the same for all players and there wouldn't be time limits or timeskips when travelling. This is the most simple and elegant solution, but it kind of loses what made daggerfall's quests unique.

2. Maybe the time limit could still exist in terms of days, so everyone would be at the same hour, but not the same day. In this case resting would just fade to black. So I could be on the 25th of a month seeing a sunset, and you could be on the 8th of that month, but you would still see the same sunset. One problem is then you can't have worldwide events like a daedric summoning day or a holiday which everyone would sync up to.

3. Another way I see it working is time limits being specific to the amount of time you spend playing. So the quest would actually only care about the hours that go by while you play, not the amount of time that happens when not online. The global calendar would be going on and would be the same for all players, while quests you get would track it's own timer modified by the amount of time at the game, as well as sleeping and travelling. This brings a few benefits: time can still lapse when sleeping or travelling and holidays cync up with other players. One big drawback is it's kind of unimmersive to have a timer which only cares about you.

4. Another idea would be to have proposal 2, except with daedric summoning days and holidays to be totally separate from your own calendar. Instead they would just be timed events.

Post Reply