Fighter Trainers Guildhalls: Placeholder, Bandaid or Just My Imagination?

[nicksta1310]

Most of the big towns in High Rock and eastern Hammerfell have Fighters Guild locations, but western Hammerfell has something a little different. The buildings look very similar, the NPCs inside are identical, they offer the same services, but the locations are called Fighter Trainers and they're classified as temples. Why?

I did some research at two sources, starting with UESP (of course). The UESP pages on the topic consistently imply that these locations are temples of Ebonarm, the God of War. If that's the case, then why are they called Fighter Trainers instead? The Fighter Trainers are a subfaction of the Fighters Guild, which is a mercenary organisation with no allegiance to a deity. Furthermore, if most of the fighter guildhalls in the Alik'r Desert worship Ebonarm, then why is Ebonarm's rival (Stendarr, God of Mercy) the patron deity of Alik'ra? It doesn't make sense.

My second source was the vanilla game's factional data file. It's no secret that the developers of Daggerfall were planning to have more than eight joinable temple factions and that most of the deities (e.g. Jephre) had shrines named after them instead. However, the contents of FACTION.TXT indicate that substantial preparations were underway for a ninth joinable temple faction called the Citadel of Ebonarm at some point in the game's development. The templar order associated with Ebonarm was called The Battlelords. Thanks to the Enhanced Info feature in the Penwick Papers mod, I learned that one of the tavern layouts includes a Redguard NPC who is a member of The Battlelords. This NPC will even refer directly to the Citadel of Ebonarm if the player is affiliated with an ally.

Therefore, it's probable that the developers of Daggerfall had intended to place the Citadel of Ebonarm at the locations known as Fighter Trainers, but they changed their minds before the game was released. If that's the case, then why did they change their minds and why do we have these weird guildhalls classified as temples that are run by a subfaction of mercenaries? I can think of three possibilities.

1) They didn't have enough time to fully implement the factional services, so they left the placeholder as it is.

2) They encountered some technical issues that made a ninth temple faction untenable.

3) They made a design decision to cut the Citadel of Ebonarm so that Fighters Guild members would have a place to go in western Hammerfell, but they didn't have time to complete the process, so the Fighter Trainers was a bandaid solution.

On the other hand, my imagination could be running away with me. It wouldn't be the first time.

[Werewolf]

Most likely unfinished content. Daggerfall had a ton of cut and unfinished features. Nice find!

[Cliffworms]

The desert towns seem to be the ones that were done last and in a hurry. Palaces are nearly empty and have floating objects, etc.

Fighter trainers are the subfaction of the Fighters Guild that offer training services to the player.

I thus consider Fighter Trainers guildhalls as simply a typo in the faction ID set to the FG halls in desert blocks, just like how the temple in Sentinel is called the Knights of Iron while it should be an Order of Arkay.

I think it's the case because several buildings also have faction ID errors where generic NPCs are identified as unique NPCs.

As for the holy place of desert FG halls, again it's a mistake on the building's data.

The UESP is someone's interpretation of the bad data. I think they mentioned that the sword rack is a shrine to Ebonarm? But why? You see that sprite in several places... It's just a sword rack.

What's left of the minor gods like Ebonarm are the roadside shrines.

[nicksta1310]

...
I thus consider Fighter Trainers guildhalls as simply a typo in the faction ID set to the FG halls in desert blocks, just like how the temple in Sentinel is called the Knights of Iron while it should be an Order of Arkay.
...
As for the holy place of desert FG halls, again it's a mistake on the building's data.

If it's just a mistake, then it's a very unfortunate one. I found an old thread on this forum about an attempt to change the Fighter Trainers temples to Fighters Guild guildhalls. It can be done, but not without breaking other buildings or stepping on other mods.
viewtopic.php?p=52806

On reflection, I agree that erroneous data is the more likely explanation for the Fighter Trainers in particular. It wouldn't be the only example of a far-reaching ID error in the game.

I think it's the case because several buildings also have faction ID errors where generic NPCs are identified as unique NPCs.

Ah yes, the infamous Lord Kilbar. I wonder if that one has been reported to XJDHDR yet.

Edit: never mind; an old thread indicates that one of your own mods addresses that problem.

The UESP is someone's interpretation of the bad data. I think they mentioned that the sword rack is a shrine to Ebonarm? But why? You see that sprite in several places... It's just a sword rack.

I didn't see that claim on UESP, but I did see it in a Reddit thread. I agree with you that the sword rack is not a shrine.

What's left of the minor gods like Ebonarm are the roadside shrines.

This is where I disagree with you about Ebonarm.

There are nine deities in the faction system: the Eight Divines and Ebonarm. Each deity has its own faction ID and at least two associated faction IDs: one for the name of the associated temple (e.g. Citadel of Ebonarm); and another for the templar order NPCs (e.g. The Battlelords). Each deity also has allies, enemies and power values. Therefore, the game's political rolls, which generate the news and some NPC reactions, treat Ebonarm as an equal with the Eight Divines.

None of the other deities with roadside shrines have any faction IDs whatsoever.

This is why I still believe that the developers were preparing to do more with Ebonarm, even if the so-called Fighter Trainers temples have nothing to do with it.