Namegen expansion/overhaul proposal

Talk about the mods you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
Post Reply
User avatar
gwemby
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:07 am

Namegen expansion/overhaul proposal

Post by gwemby »

I've found that in my questing through Daggerfall, the names generated for NPCs start to blur together. Despite sharing zero component parts, Agrastyr Wicksly or Andistair Woodsley do share more than a passing resemblance. I dread to think how non-native English speakers are faring.

Using the DFDATEDT component of DFTools, I was able to edit the version of NAMEGEN.dat that was in my \StreamingAssets\GameFiles\ARENA2 folder, but to no avail. I expect the actual namegen function is already set in FALL.exe. I would take a look at that with DFEXEEDT, but that requires patching FALL.exe with DOS32A, and that's a little beyond my skill level/confidence.

I have however, compiled a large number of lore-friendly names for each race/gender, all thanks to the UESP. This page lists 1090 unique names for Breton men alone. I began splitting them into prefixes and suffixes, but it quickly becomes apparent the shortcomings of such a system. Woodcroft and Pinewood are both fine Breton surnames, but adding the constituent parts to the table means that Woodwood is now a valid surname. Most of these issues can be fixed, however, with proper care and protocol.

However, it struck me that, perhaps, with such a vast swath of lore-friendly names at our disposal, the original namegen system may no longer be necessary. There are 169 possible Breton male first names in Daggerfall, many of which are very derivative. Changing the system to just pick from a curated list is sure to massively boost the variety and memorability of each NPC. We don't even have to stop at 1090. Grandfathering in the original Arena/Daggerfall name options, we reach 1259. More still can easily be created based on available examples and added to the collection.

I'm more than happy to compile such lists, but I'm sorely lacking in the technical know-how to apply these changes to the game, let alone publish a mod for others to download and add to their games. If anyone is interested or able to assist in this endeavour, please let me know. I would be extremely grateful.
i love you and wish you happy gaming <3

User avatar
C0rg1
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:34 pm

Re: Namegen expansion/overhaul proposal

Post by C0rg1 »

I agree with you that the naming mechanism needs a rework.

Why not change the names to be produced on a phonetic level. Many names are words that have been forgotten due to translation, slang and nicknames. Take for example "robert/rupert/bert/bertha". Robert comes from germanic origin of "fame" and "bright" added together. Perhaps individual names themselves could be constructed of 1 to 3 sylables based on a real life language equivalents then smashed together on a phonetic level. So youd get Hrōþi-berhtaz as the original spelling but phoneticaly "roy-bertaz". Weird but through this kind of google translate type of element you get names appropiate to the various species and languages.

Simple famous example
Dark father (eng) = dunkler Vater (ger)-mix it up- Darth vader. I suspect that the plot twist of The Empire Strikes Back was not as supriseing to many german speakers as it was to english speakers.

Then you nave differnt naming conventions. Does the family name come first? Are 3 names the norm or are 2. Are hyphenated names acceptable or banned? Is the last name their trade or the town they were born in? These various elements mix everything up and can create unique names. For example if family names come first and are trade names you get Smith Woodscrest tom and Smith Woodscrest Jerry. Two brothers that are blacksmiths born in the town of Woodscrest.

Then you have issues with Long names in the dialoge window. Would it acomidate 3 section long names, or Longer??

As i first said. I agree that the naming system needs a rework.

User avatar
NikitaTheTanner
Posts: 366
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:57 pm

Re: Namegen expansion/overhaul proposal

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

I think there are a two ways to go about expanding the system:
1) Vanilla friendly - keep the same structure of names (prefix + suffix), but introduce new ones that sound similar, yet add variety to the possible names.

Original has a system like this:
The 13 prefixes for male Breton names are: Agr-, Alab-, And-, Bed-, Dun-, Edw-, Gond-, Mord-, Per-, Rod-, Theod-, Trist-, and Uth-.
The 13 suffixes for male Breton names are: -ane, -ard, -astyr, -istair, -istyr, -ore, -oryan, -yctor, -yn, -ynak, -yrick, -yval, and -ywyr.
Taken from https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton_Names

So a total of 169 possible names, all random.

It might be feasible to add new prefixes and suffixes to increase possible combinations by a magnitude, though some of them would still sound strange.

For example, you can have new parts, like these:
Ald-, Bern-, Cal-, Dr-, Erw-, Fl-, Gwyn-, etc.
-ax, -eas, -eron, -eryn, -idan, -onwen, -ydfil, etc.
With this small addition of 7 prefixes and suffixes, the number of possible male Breton names grows to 400, all random. Of course, each addition increases the magnitude further.

2) Semi-realistic - a more realistic and human-readable approach would be to simply have a prepared list of names, which would be distributed across NPCs. These could be either inspired by future games of the series, or based on real names of the same origins as their original DF counterparts, maybe with a hint of fantasy through in for variety.

Distribution also doesn't have to be random in this case, as there are always most common names, which are especially popular, like our world's Johns and Maries, somewhat common names and rare names.
For example, 40% could have the same 10 popular names, other 40% could have around 30 common names, and the other 20% could have all sorts of random rare names.

----
Personally, I wouldn't mind either option.

Post Reply