Project N - a.k.a. what Daggerfall totally *doesn’t* need? Ok, I’ll do exactly that!

[Arneb]

I just found this project after inquiring if anyone else had thought about doing a 1:1 Tamriel in DFU. I'm sure we're not the only ones that think a game on the full scale continent would be cool as hell, but it appears this project isn't quite focused enough to get much outside help. I have to agree with others in this thread that many of the things you want to hardcode would push people away from supporting the project, mainly removing fast travel outright.

TBTH, this project is getting A LOT of support from DFU modders. But if we don’t take them into consideration yeah, not much. I could argue about “quality over quantity”, but this isn’t the point: I don’t think I’m not getting much external support because of the changes I’m planning regarding fast travel, but because I wrote a lot about what I’m doing, but no one had a chance actually see it, yet. I could totally be a scam! On top of that, if a huge number of volunteers would suddenly offer their help, I would struggle to find them all something to do. The hard part behind this project is already behind, right now I need graphical assets, and that's a work that can't be given to anyone: graphical coherence is imperative, and I don't know many people that can attain that. Well, whatever.

There are very good game design reasons that features like fast travel, world maps, compass, etc exist; they're tedious and difficult to play large scale video games without. And this project goes far beyond large and into colossal territory. Outright removing them isn't a good call. Making an option to remove them if the player chooses would satisfy all the involved camps, those that want any of these features and those that don't.
Most people don't have time for the massive cross-country treks that playing Project N would entail. I agree that having instantaneous fast travel across a full-scale Tamriel would be counter to the projects goals, but having the option wouldn't hurt, and having time-accelerated travel, ala Travel Options, would benefit both sides of the argument; it would offer less downtime, making time spent traveling more meaningful, while still being able to explore when something catches the player's attention.

But what if the wilderness wasn't an empty space anymore? What if we gave point of interest to be found in that empty space? Roads will be there by default, and if there's a road, it must bring somewhere. Signs will be automatically generated at crossroads (roads only) with indication about what can be expected to be found at the end of it. I already implemented new Survival Advantages that, under certain circumstances, will bring back the compass and/or the "I'm At" button. A compass item will probably be implemented, with different pros and cons. Automated payed travel is a planned feature, and ship travel (from port to port exclusively) will not be touched. And if everything fails (and it's daytime, and no overcast), well, the sun still move from east to west, so it's a sort of compass, ain't it?
What I'm trying to say is, I don't plan to leave a character in the wilderness, blinded and with no idea where to go next: for every thing I'll remove, I'll give something back. But probably players will learn that completing 4 quest in a hour, with quest objectives located at the other end of the region, won't be possible anymore. Will that be a waste of time? Maybe, but not every game is for everyone.

Removing color-coded town maps definitely give the player a more meaningful lost experience, but would also just add tedium for players that don't want to be totally lost.
Taking away NPCs marking locations on your maps is outright unrealistic, and that feels counter to your goals as laid out.
Taking away the compass when all quest givers can tell you about a quest objective is the cardinal direction it can be found in will just make it impossible to complete any quests.

I always played DFU without color-coded town maps, and I can assure everyone that it's totally doable. Beside that, town maps bought in shops will be color coded. Not having the arrow to point to the player actual location will surely be a slight inconvenience, but nothing dramatic.
I'm not against townsfolk pointing locations on the character's map, I just don't like repeating the same question for directions until it is marked, ignoring any other indication. And what if the character doesn't have a town map to begin with? So maybe I'll just develop a system to make an NPC not answering more than one of the same questions, while getting angry if asked. We'll see.

You have to respect people's time if you want their support. I can't code, so forking Project N isn't really an option for me to get the parts of it that I want without the parts that I don't.

Yeah...I don't know. I don't feel like giving the players a different way to play means disrespecting their time. But I could be wrong.

As a person who uses Travel Options' travelling by roads utility extensively, I should very much argee on that.
I would also add that TO would need a bit more work to be a fully viable travel alternative:
- Right now the accelerated travel to a destination actually ignores roads (which is a critical flaw);
- Accelerating past x10 speed can lead to falling into The Void (which prevents you from covering long distances in a reasonable amount of time);
- The road encounters should have much more thought put into them to make the experience really good and not just "okay for a dedicated player".

Well, since I'm removing accelerated travel, I don't see those as problems.

I understand everybody perplexities about the new stuff introduced with ProjectN, but I recommend to wait for a working demo before calling it "unplayable".

[boredofpost90slife]

But what if the wilderness wasn't an empty space anymore? What if we gave point of interest to be found in that empty space? Roads will be there by default, and if there's a road, it must bring somewhere. Signs will be automatically generated at crossroads (roads only) with indication about what can be expected to be found at the end of it. I already implemented new Survival Advantages that, under certain circumstances, will bring back the compass and/or the "I'm At" button. A compass item will probably be implemented, with different pros and cons. Automated payed travel is a planned feature, and ship travel (from port to port exclusively) will not be touched. And if everything fails (and it's daytime, and no overcast), well, the sun still move from east to west, so it's a sort of compass, ain't it?
What I'm trying to say is, I don't plan to leave a character in the wilderness, blinded and with no idea where to go next: for every thing I'll remove, I'll give something back. But probably players will learn that completing 4 quest in a hour, with quest objectives located at the other end of the region, won't be possible anymore. Will that be a waste of time? Maybe, but not every game is for everyone.

Please stick to this stance no matter the population who feels its too hardcore!
This sounds awesome! Please stick to your vision without compromise!

Traveling to distant lands for better resources and prosperity is a quest itself.
Migrating to the Isles of Aldmeris should be a proud feat for players who dedicated the time, resources (boat purchase) and risks on such a far journey southward. Where they can enjoy bigger much more plentiful resources from the local fish species in the warmer waters...if they can endure the harsh dangers of the Isles such as hostile lizardmen and meaner much more powerful dragonlings

[pizzaforfree]

But what if the wilderness wasn't an empty space anymore? What if we gave point of interest to be found in that empty space? Roads will be there by default, and if there's a road, it must bring somewhere. Signs will be automatically generated at crossroads (roads only) with indication about what can be expected to be found at the end of it. I already implemented new Survival Advantages that, under certain circumstances, will bring back the compass and/or the "I'm At" button. A compass item will probably be implemented, with different pros and cons. Automated payed travel is a planned feature, and ship travel (from port to port exclusively) will not be touched. And if everything fails (and it's daytime, and no overcast), well, the sun still move from east to west, so it's a sort of compass, ain't it?
What I'm trying to say is, I don't plan to leave a character in the wilderness, blinded and with no idea where to go next: for every thing I'll remove, I'll give something back. But probably players will learn that completing 4 quest in a hour, with quest objectives located at the other end of the region, won't be possible anymore. Will that be a waste of time? Maybe, but not every game is for everyone.

Vanilla Daggerfall is already realistically dense; I, at least, don't want to play with full-scale Tamriel at Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim levels of density, I want it to take time to get from place to place, I just don't want it to take that much real time. If someone wants to real time travel from place to place, they can already do that by just not using fast travel.
Compass and on-map player location are conveniences that aren't in reality, sure, but they're conveniences that allow people to just play to relax. I don't want to limit my character build options by using up my advantage slots on knowing where I am and where I'm facing (I was also unaware vanilla DF even had a moving sun, I thought that came as part of Enhanced Skies and Dynamic Skies).

I always played DFU without color-coded town maps, and I can assure everyone that it's totally doable. Beside that, town maps bought in shops will be color coded. Not having the arrow to point to the player actual location will surely be a slight inconvenience, but nothing dramatic.
I'm not against townsfolk pointing locations on the character's map, I just don't like repeating the same question for directions until it is marked, ignoring any other indication. And what if the character doesn't have a town map to begin with? So maybe I'll just develop a system to make an NPC not answering more than one of the same questions, while getting angry if asked. We'll see.

I never said it wasn't doable, hell you can play the game entirely without the town map, if that's your prerogative. It's not mine, though, and I highly doubt I'm alone in that. It's definitely something that could be a good change for people that want it, if it's its own thing. You're adding a bunch of small bits of tedium to the game, but put together it's not a tedious aspect to the game, it's just a tedious game. I tried going from villager to villager, asking for a location only once from each, before, and I did not have a good time, and I felt like my time had just been wasted.

Yeah...I don't know. I don't feel like giving the players a different way to play means disrespecting their time. But I could be wrong.

I don't feel like you're giving players a different way to play, rather you're railroading them into your own way to play, and locking a really cool thing, that is the reason some of us are even here, behind that. What if someone wants the vanilla Daggerfall experience with the entirety of Tamriel? It feels completely backwards to make them mod the game further just to get that vanilla experience back.

I understand everybody perplexities about the new stuff introduced with ProjectN, but I recommend to wait for a working demo before calling it "unplayable".

I personally would not call this concept unplayable, at this stage. Despite what I've said, I think it's quite interesting; though, other than the full-scale Tamriel, it's not what I want to play Daggerfall for and, as one that cannot code, I'd have to wait for others to mod back the features I'd miss. Making the gameplay changes optional, so I can try your vision of the game at my leisure, instead of forcing me to use them to have access to Tamriel, would satisfy myself and anyone else in my position. Right now it just makes me sad.

[Gixel]

What if someone wants the vanilla Daggerfall experience with the entirety of Tamriel?

I'm one of them.

[Kingdom]

Any updates on the actual mod itself.

[Arneb]

Any updates on the actual mod itself.

Mod is proceeding faster than expected! The best (one of the best?) RMB designer in the DF community is already doing great work on new blocks for Black Marsh.
Me, I'm working on different fronts at the same time, so not to get bored or frustrated: R&R and R&R:I are already part of the code, and I'm almost finished with C&C. Seasons are now influenced by latitude and altitude, day and night cycles by latitude and season. We have new skills and advantages, like Armour Skills, Block, Disguise, Climate Survival, and more are close to be implemented.
When I don't have access to my laptop, I'm studying TES lore on my phone.

I'd say we're doing great.

[Gixel]

studying TES lore

Do you study the lore of all games, or like the weirdos at Tamriel Rebuilt - only TES I-II and what Kirkbride wrote?

[Arneb]

studying TES lore

Do you study the lore of all games, or like the weirdos at Tamriel Rebuilt - only TES I-II and what Kirkbride wrote?

Well, I'm "studying" it on UESP, so I guess not-weirdo?
I have to admit I'm not that fond of all the stuff that seems to happen in 2E582 (ESO), but I doubt that will have much influence on my fork's timeline.

[jayhova]

studying TES lore

Do you study the lore of all games, or like the weirdos at Tamriel Rebuilt - only TES I-II and what Kirkbride wrote?

I am a fan of the weirdos.

[Arneb]

studying TES lore

Do you study the lore of all games, or like the weirdos at Tamriel Rebuilt - only TES I-II and what Kirkbride wrote?

I am a fan of the weirdos.

What are the major differences between TES 1-2-MK and post TES3+? By the way, where does Redguard and Battlespire fall in that separation?